4 ms·

I don't understand your reasoning here. If we accept the premise that 40% of people add no value to the world in the jobs they have, it seems preposterous to e

I don't understand your reasoning here. If we accept the premise that 40% of people add no value to the world in the jobs they have, it seems preposterous to even entertain the thought that none of these people would add any value to society, if you liberated them from their jobs. The whole open source software movement is proof to his position. People spend a lot of free time delivering value out of hours, value to both businesses and society. Most of these people have a normal day job.

molteanu 8y ago
I just feel we (and Graeber) are ignoring details here. Sure, it's nice to think that "all will be well in fairyland". Reality is so much different and it doesn't help if we just use wishful thinking without understanding that reality. Sure, maybe 1% or 2$ of that 40% would do meaningful work. Let's say we take that for granted. What about the others? What social role would they play? Who or what will pay for their idleness? Who would want to clean up the garbage if a majority of people do nothing and still get payed? How would you explain to someone who cleans the streets the the idle folk might come out with something useful in some distant future? How would the social fabric just not disintegrate? How can you keep the society functioning as a whole?
- watwut 8y ago
  I don't think it is necessary for people to have threat of absolute poverty and destruction over their heads for the society to function and for social fabric to not disintegrate. Really.
- Ultimatt 8y ago
  Youre already paying for their bullshit job indirectly but theyre miserable. Why not pay for them to be happy. Thats the definition of a BS job. I have a job thats meaningful to me. I am willing to work without pay for that even. If being a cleaner is valuable and under appreciated. Guess what cleaners become well paid in the new reality adjusted economy. That you think they shouldnt be speaks volumes about broken social norms around work.
- jostylr 8y ago
  Do you want to live in a land of garbage? If no one wanted to pick up garbage at the current wage being paid, there are options: a) offer more for the wages b) reorganize trash collection, such as neighborhood dumpsters or taking the trash oneself to somewhere, possibly reducing the amount we all use c) communities deciding to get together to clean up their own neighborhoods. This is a bit like shoveling snow. I shovel the street around where I live so I can park there. Some people help, others don't. I'm fine with that. I care about it being shoveled so I take action. If I didn't care, then I wouldn't. That's the point. Fundamentally, playing video games and watching videos gets boring after awhile. People want to be useful once their survival and security needs are met. It is obscured in our society because low wage workers are barely surviving and the bs jobs people, who often make plenty of money, do not have long term security. They know that they can be fired at any moment because they are not actually useful. That job insecurity is what fuels the managerial feudalism and why useful workers are squeezed out (they have the true power to strike). Much of the population lives below the point where the drive to be valuable kicks in. Implementing a UBI would allow us to potentially get above that point. No one wants society to fall apart and so it does not. If everything was based solely on money, there would be no kids, there would be no helpful people, there would be no taking care of elderly parents, there would be far more law breaking than there is, etc. Society works because we need it to do so and we will do whatever it takes make this happen.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  If only 1% of those went on to do meaningful work, it’s still more than 0 doing meaningful work, which is the current state. It makes economic sense to free people from having to do value-destroying or value-neutral work, merely for the chance that they’d use that opportunity more productively. Hell, I consider my own work reasonably valuable/productive, but if I was free from needing to do it to survive I would likely find something more productive/interesting/meaningful to do.
watwut 8y ago
Most open source is written by people who are paid for it. This is per FOSS stats, so we are not counting in students projects on github no one uses. I don't think it is good example. But also, people who write open source for free in off hours have good marketable skills. They are not in same position as people who cant do something like that.
- wetpaws 8y ago
  People might be paid for open source, but they are not doing it for money, they are doing it because they enjoy it
  - watwut 8y ago
    To some extend, yes. Then again I enjoy my corporate close source job too. Honestly, I like it now. There is also a lot of work involved in making function software that is just that - a work, oftentimes thankless boring or politically bullshit difficult work that needs to be done and is done by people who feel responsibility or duty to finish it.
dagw 8y ago
The whole open source software movement is proof to his position. How much of the free time development is done, directly or indirectly, in support of their day job though. Often times they're doing it either to improve the tools they use on their day job, improving the skills they use on their day job or trying to learn new skills so they can get a new/better day job.

molteanu 8y ago

I just feel we (and Graeber) are ignoring details here. Sure, it's nice to think that "all will be well in fairyland". Reality is so much different and it doesn't help if we just use wishful thinking without understanding that reality. Sure, maybe 1% or 2$ of that 40% would do meaningful work. Let's say we take that for granted. What about the others? What social role would they play? Who or what will pay for their idleness? Who would want to clean up the garbage if a majority of people do nothing and still get payed? How would you explain to someone who cleans the streets the the idle folk might come out with something useful in some distant future? How would the social fabric just not disintegrate? How can you keep the society functioning as a whole?

watwut 8y ago
I don't think it is necessary for people to have threat of absolute poverty and destruction over their heads for the society to function and for social fabric to not disintegrate. Really.
Ultimatt 8y ago
Youre already paying for their bullshit job indirectly but theyre miserable. Why not pay for them to be happy. Thats the definition of a BS job. I have a job thats meaningful to me. I am willing to work without pay for that even. If being a cleaner is valuable and under appreciated. Guess what cleaners become well paid in the new reality adjusted economy. That you think they shouldnt be speaks volumes about broken social norms around work.
jostylr 8y ago
Do you want to live in a land of garbage? If no one wanted to pick up garbage at the current wage being paid, there are options: a) offer more for the wages b) reorganize trash collection, such as neighborhood dumpsters or taking the trash oneself to somewhere, possibly reducing the amount we all use c) communities deciding to get together to clean up their own neighborhoods. This is a bit like shoveling snow. I shovel the street around where I live so I can park there. Some people help, others don't. I'm fine with that. I care about it being shoveled so I take action. If I didn't care, then I wouldn't. That's the point. Fundamentally, playing video games and watching videos gets boring after awhile. People want to be useful once their survival and security needs are met. It is obscured in our society because low wage workers are barely surviving and the bs jobs people, who often make plenty of money, do not have long term security. They know that they can be fired at any moment because they are not actually useful. That job insecurity is what fuels the managerial feudalism and why useful workers are squeezed out (they have the true power to strike). Much of the population lives below the point where the drive to be valuable kicks in. Implementing a UBI would allow us to potentially get above that point. No one wants society to fall apart and so it does not. If everything was based solely on money, there would be no kids, there would be no helpful people, there would be no taking care of elderly parents, there would be far more law breaking than there is, etc. Society works because we need it to do so and we will do whatever it takes make this happen.
ryandrake 8y ago
If only 1% of those went on to do meaningful work, it’s still more than 0 doing meaningful work, which is the current state. It makes economic sense to free people from having to do value-destroying or value-neutral work, merely for the chance that they’d use that opportunity more productively. Hell, I consider my own work reasonably valuable/productive, but if I was free from needing to do it to survive I would likely find something more productive/interesting/meaningful to do.

watwut 8y ago

Most open source is written by people who are paid for it. This is per FOSS stats, so we are not counting in students projects on github no one uses. I don't think it is good example. But also, people who write open source for free in off hours have good marketable skills. They are not in same position as people who cant do something like that.

wetpaws 8y ago
People might be paid for open source, but they are not doing it for money, they are doing it because they enjoy it
- watwut 8y ago
  To some extend, yes. Then again I enjoy my corporate close source job too. Honestly, I like it now. There is also a lot of work involved in making function software that is just that - a work, oftentimes thankless boring or politically bullshit difficult work that needs to be done and is done by people who feel responsibility or duty to finish it.

dagw 8y ago

The whole open source software movement is proof to his position. How much of the free time development is done, directly or indirectly, in support of their day job though. Often times they're doing it either to improve the tools they use on their day job, improving the skills they use on their day job or trying to learn new skills so they can get a new/better day job.