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The whole argument is essentially that if we take people at their word and assume that 50% of the work being done today is bullshit do we believe that if we lib

The whole argument is essentially that if we take people at their word and assume that 50% of the work being done today is bullshit do we believe that if we liberated everyone to do whatever they wanted, would 50% of what they do then be bullshit? I'm inclined to think not, but I'm fairly sanguine about people's desire to do meaningful work.

molteanu 8y ago
Well, think about what people do on their holidays. Think about what people do on a Friday night or on weekends. Do they take one week vacation to do meaningful work or for "having a blast"? Are Friday nights usually reserved for reading Plato or for "going out for drinks"? On the other side of the argument, yes, this having fun in your free time might just be a way to blow off steam after a mindless, pointless day or year at work. Following this argument, then yes, taking out the boring work from the equation might also reduce or eliminate the need to feed your pleasure side. But I, for one, I'm not really convinced of this. It might still be true, but it's not a given in my view.
- anewhnaccount2 8y ago
  Certainly it's not given for everyone, but UBI would change social norms. The real question is not whether anyone would feed their pleasure side as much, more, or even "full-time" but rather that aggregate happiness and life satisfaction would grow and thus society would benefit. EDIT: If you read the end of Gruber's book, there's an exploration of this and the associated moralising.
- undreren 8y ago
  I don't understand your reasoning here. If we accept the premise that 40% of people add no value to the world in the jobs they have, it seems preposterous to even entertain the thought that none of these people would add any value to society, if you liberated them from their jobs. The whole open source software movement is proof to his position. People spend a lot of free time delivering value out of hours, value to both businesses and society. Most of these people have a normal day job.
  - molteanu 8y ago
    I just feel we (and Graeber) are ignoring details here. Sure, it's nice to think that "all will be well in fairyland". Reality is so much different and it doesn't help if we just use wishful thinking without understanding that reality. Sure, maybe 1% or 2$ of that 40% would do meaningful work. Let's say we take that for granted. What about the others? What social role would they play? Who or what will pay for their idleness? Who would want to clean up the garbage if a majority of people do nothing and still get payed? How would you explain to someone who cleans the streets the the idle folk might come out with something useful in some distant future? How would the social fabric just not disintegrate? How can you keep the society functioning as a whole?
    - watwut 8y ago
      I don't think it is necessary for people to have threat of absolute poverty and destruction over their heads for the society to function and for social fabric to not disintegrate. Really.
    - Ultimatt 8y ago
      Youre already paying for their bullshit job indirectly but theyre miserable. Why not pay for them to be happy. Thats the definition of a BS job. I have a job thats meaningful to me. I am willing to work without pay for that even. If being a cleaner is valuable and under appreciated. Guess what cleaners become well paid in the new reality adjusted economy. That you think they shouldnt be speaks volumes about broken social norms around work.
    - jostylr 8y ago
      Do you want to live in a land of garbage? If no one wanted to pick up garbage at the current wage being paid, there are options: a) offer more for the wages b) reorganize trash collection, such as neighborhood dumpsters or taking the trash oneself to somewhere, possibly reducing the amount we all use c) communities deciding to get together to clean up their own neighborhoods. This is a bit like shoveling snow. I shovel the street around where I live so I can park there. Some people help, others don't. I'm fine with that. I care about it being shoveled so I take action. If I didn't care, then I wouldn't. That's the point. Fundamentally, playing video games and watching videos gets boring after awhile. People want to be useful once their survival and security needs are met. It is obscured in our society because low wage workers are barely surviving and the bs jobs people, who often make plenty of money, do not have long term security. They know that they can be fired at any moment because they are not actually useful. That job insecurity is what fuels the managerial feudalism and why useful workers are squeezed out (they have the true power to strike). Much of the population lives below the point where the drive to be valuable kicks in. Implementing a UBI would allow us to potentially get above that point. No one wants society to fall apart and so it does not. If everything was based solely on money, there would be no kids, there would be no helpful people, there would be no taking care of elderly parents, there would be far more law breaking than there is, etc. Society works because we need it to do so and we will do whatever it takes make this happen.
- jstanley 8y ago
  People can spend their free time doing whatever they want. What's the problem with that?
- jinfiesto 8y ago
  I don't know man. I just took a week of PTO to "Marie Kondo" my house. Before I had kids, I used to take a week or a long weekend pretty frequently to work through a book or learn some new tech, so I don't think it's that unusual. Probably at least half of my yearly PTO ends up being me going to conferences (professional) on my own dime.
techdmn 8y ago
I had some contact with the unschooling movement while growing up, and came away with some interesting conclusions. It isn't uncommon when a kid stops going to school, for them to basically mope around and play video games and not do anything for some period of time - weeks or months. But after a while they do get bored, and start to get interested in learning about and doing things. I think people intrinsically want to be active and have projects and learn and create. BUT you have to detox from living such a structured life, and that's a process that takes time. It's no surprise to me that people who have gone to school or daycare since before they can remember, then had to work full-time after that, don't really know what to do with themselves when they have a few days or a week off, or that they spend that time in ways that appear to be wasted. You need to recover from having someone else tell you what to do all the time. Sadly not everyone does.

molteanu 8y ago

Well, think about what people do on their holidays. Think about what people do on a Friday night or on weekends. Do they take one week vacation to do meaningful work or for "having a blast"? Are Friday nights usually reserved for reading Plato or for "going out for drinks"? On the other side of the argument, yes, this having fun in your free time might just be a way to blow off steam after a mindless, pointless day or year at work. Following this argument, then yes, taking out the boring work from the equation might also reduce or eliminate the need to feed your pleasure side. But I, for one, I'm not really convinced of this. It might still be true, but it's not a given in my view.

anewhnaccount2 8y ago
Certainly it's not given for everyone, but UBI would change social norms. The real question is not whether anyone would feed their pleasure side as much, more, or even "full-time" but rather that aggregate happiness and life satisfaction would grow and thus society would benefit. EDIT: If you read the end of Gruber's book, there's an exploration of this and the associated moralising.
undreren 8y ago
I don't understand your reasoning here. If we accept the premise that 40% of people add no value to the world in the jobs they have, it seems preposterous to even entertain the thought that none of these people would add any value to society, if you liberated them from their jobs. The whole open source software movement is proof to his position. People spend a lot of free time delivering value out of hours, value to both businesses and society. Most of these people have a normal day job.
- molteanu 8y ago
  I just feel we (and Graeber) are ignoring details here. Sure, it's nice to think that "all will be well in fairyland". Reality is so much different and it doesn't help if we just use wishful thinking without understanding that reality. Sure, maybe 1% or 2$ of that 40% would do meaningful work. Let's say we take that for granted. What about the others? What social role would they play? Who or what will pay for their idleness? Who would want to clean up the garbage if a majority of people do nothing and still get payed? How would you explain to someone who cleans the streets the the idle folk might come out with something useful in some distant future? How would the social fabric just not disintegrate? How can you keep the society functioning as a whole?
  - watwut 8y ago
    I don't think it is necessary for people to have threat of absolute poverty and destruction over their heads for the society to function and for social fabric to not disintegrate. Really.
  - Ultimatt 8y ago
    Youre already paying for their bullshit job indirectly but theyre miserable. Why not pay for them to be happy. Thats the definition of a BS job. I have a job thats meaningful to me. I am willing to work without pay for that even. If being a cleaner is valuable and under appreciated. Guess what cleaners become well paid in the new reality adjusted economy. That you think they shouldnt be speaks volumes about broken social norms around work.
  - jostylr 8y ago
    Do you want to live in a land of garbage? If no one wanted to pick up garbage at the current wage being paid, there are options: a) offer more for the wages b) reorganize trash collection, such as neighborhood dumpsters or taking the trash oneself to somewhere, possibly reducing the amount we all use c) communities deciding to get together to clean up their own neighborhoods. This is a bit like shoveling snow. I shovel the street around where I live so I can park there. Some people help, others don't. I'm fine with that. I care about it being shoveled so I take action. If I didn't care, then I wouldn't. That's the point. Fundamentally, playing video games and watching videos gets boring after awhile. People want to be useful once their survival and security needs are met. It is obscured in our society because low wage workers are barely surviving and the bs jobs people, who often make plenty of money, do not have long term security. They know that they can be fired at any moment because they are not actually useful. That job insecurity is what fuels the managerial feudalism and why useful workers are squeezed out (they have the true power to strike). Much of the population lives below the point where the drive to be valuable kicks in. Implementing a UBI would allow us to potentially get above that point. No one wants society to fall apart and so it does not. If everything was based solely on money, there would be no kids, there would be no helpful people, there would be no taking care of elderly parents, there would be far more law breaking than there is, etc. Society works because we need it to do so and we will do whatever it takes make this happen.
jstanley 8y ago
People can spend their free time doing whatever they want. What's the problem with that?
jinfiesto 8y ago
I don't know man. I just took a week of PTO to "Marie Kondo" my house. Before I had kids, I used to take a week or a long weekend pretty frequently to work through a book or learn some new tech, so I don't think it's that unusual. Probably at least half of my yearly PTO ends up being me going to conferences (professional) on my own dime.

techdmn 8y ago

I had some contact with the unschooling movement while growing up, and came away with some interesting conclusions. It isn't uncommon when a kid stops going to school, for them to basically mope around and play video games and not do anything for some period of time - weeks or months. But after a while they do get bored, and start to get interested in learning about and doing things. I think people intrinsically want to be active and have projects and learn and create. BUT you have to detox from living such a structured life, and that's a process that takes time. It's no surprise to me that people who have gone to school or daycare since before they can remember, then had to work full-time after that, don't really know what to do with themselves when they have a few days or a week off, or that they spend that time in ways that appear to be wasted. You need to recover from having someone else tell you what to do all the time. Sadly not everyone does.