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I am very sorry, you talk like a sensible person. But the more you explain it the less respect I have for religion. American Pentecostalism sounds like a very

I am very sorry, you talk like a sensible person. But the more you explain it the less respect I have for religion. American Pentecostalism sounds like a very stupid tribal superstition to me. I come from an European and Catholic background. Catholicism and the Protestant mainstream that adopted most of their Theology (e.g.: Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Calvinism) do have a deep respect for science. They learned that lesson painfully, after what they did to Copernicus and Galileo. Pentecostals are headed to serious mistakes if they think anti-reason can take them anywhere.

dragontamer 8y ago
Well, there are plenty of cults. So the concept of "religion being used for evil" shouldn't be alien to anybody. I think it is fair to say that some religious ideas are harmful (ie: getting together to drink cyanide, aka the Jim Jones cult / Peoples Temple) And even for the Biblical literalists: they only have to look into the Bible to see the many examples of Pagan religions, from the Golden Calf, to Pharaoh / Exodus, and more, to understand that false gods exist. So surely, they should understand the importance of "getting religion correct". So I think it is fair to call out certain religious doctrines to be "unhelpful", or even "evil", depending on the case. But I wouldn't generalize much further than that.
nyolfen 8y ago
pentecostals are the fastest christian denomination in the world and have been for some time. most people barely understand what science means much less weigh it against the core of their social identity.
- diego_moita 8y ago
  Sorry, what is your point?
  - nyolfen 8y ago
    "Pentecostals are headed to serious mistakes if they think anti-reason can take them anywhere." my point is they're doing pretty well despite you knowing better
    - diego_moita 8y ago
      By that metric, that overstates growth in 3rd world countries, fundamentalist Islam and ultra-orthodox Jews are doing even better. When I use the word "mistake" I am not referring to number of dumb followers, is about intellectual relevance. It is pretty clear that, in developed countries, these obscurantist and fundamentalist creeds are loosing cultural hegemony (e.g.: same-sex marriage, marijuana legalization, multiculturalism, abortion, etc).
flukus 8y ago
You might be surprised by the official catholic position on evolution. There take on evolution for instance is: > Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him. That isn't evolution via natural selection, that's evolution via gods hex editor altering the genome, they explicitly reject natural evolution: > While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution. They also believe in a literal Adam and Eve: > The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, "The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents" Catholics are creationists, just not of they young earth variety. Edit - Source: https://www.catholic.com/tract/adam-eve-and-evolution https://www.catholic.com/tract/adam-eve-and-evolution
- dragontamer 8y ago
  > That isn't evolution via natural selection, that's evolution via gods hex editor altering the genome, they explicitly reject natural evolution: I disagree with the interpretation of your source. > Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. A quote straight out of your source. Pretty clear that Natural Selection could be a mechanism designed by God. ---------- With regards to Adam and Eve, it doesn't seem like the Church literally believes that they perhaps existed. But the fall of man away from God is tied to our gain of knowledge (the core element of the story). The important element of the creation story, the part that is Catholic Doctrine above all else, is the existence of Original Sin. The moment that the first Man and first Woman turned against God, due to gaining knowledge forbidden to animals. Original Sin is the doctrine that is most fundamental to the Catholic faith. It helps to understand what is Catholic Doctrine, so you know what the author is trying to say in those parts. -------- Note: Catholic Doctrine (from the Catechism, one of the most important books in the Catholic Faith) is: > Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth

dragontamer 8y ago

Well, there are plenty of cults. So the concept of "religion being used for evil" shouldn't be alien to anybody. I think it is fair to say that some religious ideas are harmful (ie: getting together to drink cyanide, aka the Jim Jones cult / Peoples Temple) And even for the Biblical literalists: they only have to look into the Bible to see the many examples of Pagan religions, from the Golden Calf, to Pharaoh / Exodus, and more, to understand that false gods exist. So surely, they should understand the importance of "getting religion correct". So I think it is fair to call out certain religious doctrines to be "unhelpful", or even "evil", depending on the case. But I wouldn't generalize much further than that.

nyolfen 8y ago

pentecostals are the fastest christian denomination in the world and have been for some time. most people barely understand what science means much less weigh it against the core of their social identity.

diego_moita 8y ago
Sorry, what is your point?
- nyolfen 8y ago
  "Pentecostals are headed to serious mistakes if they think anti-reason can take them anywhere." my point is they're doing pretty well despite you knowing better
  - diego_moita 8y ago
    By that metric, that overstates growth in 3rd world countries, fundamentalist Islam and ultra-orthodox Jews are doing even better. When I use the word "mistake" I am not referring to number of dumb followers, is about intellectual relevance. It is pretty clear that, in developed countries, these obscurantist and fundamentalist creeds are loosing cultural hegemony (e.g.: same-sex marriage, marijuana legalization, multiculturalism, abortion, etc).

flukus 8y ago

You might be surprised by the official catholic position on evolution. There take on evolution for instance is: > Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him. That isn't evolution via natural selection, that's evolution via gods hex editor altering the genome, they explicitly reject natural evolution: > While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution. They also believe in a literal Adam and Eve: > The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, "The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents" Catholics are creationists, just not of they young earth variety. Edit - Source: https://www.catholic.com/tract/adam-eve-and-evolution https://www.catholic.com/tract/adam-eve-and-evolution

dragontamer 8y ago
> That isn't evolution via natural selection, that's evolution via gods hex editor altering the genome, they explicitly reject natural evolution: I disagree with the interpretation of your source. > Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. A quote straight out of your source. Pretty clear that Natural Selection could be a mechanism designed by God. ---------- With regards to Adam and Eve, it doesn't seem like the Church literally believes that they perhaps existed. But the fall of man away from God is tied to our gain of knowledge (the core element of the story). The important element of the creation story, the part that is Catholic Doctrine above all else, is the existence of Original Sin. The moment that the first Man and first Woman turned against God, due to gaining knowledge forbidden to animals. Original Sin is the doctrine that is most fundamental to the Catholic faith. It helps to understand what is Catholic Doctrine, so you know what the author is trying to say in those parts. -------- Note: Catholic Doctrine (from the Catechism, one of the most important books in the Catholic Faith) is: > Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth