5 ms·

As an ally, I think this post is pretty interesting in terms of the efficacy of programs which increase inclusion and their projected impact along a variety of

As an ally, I think this post is pretty interesting in terms of the efficacy of programs which increase inclusion and their projected impact along a variety of metrics. I despair at having a decent conversation about it on HN, though. :(

DoreenMichele 8y ago
I'm a woman. FWIW, when I have been on email lists where the population was mostly female, men still dominated the conversation. The dirty little secret is that an awful lot of women reinforce the male dominant status quo. Women often aligned themselves with the dominant male voice on the list and gave anyone hell who dared stand up to him. This often meant I was a target of such behavior.
- rectang 8y ago
  So, the data from the story and your both hypothesis suggest that parity in representation alone won't in and of itself result in parity along other axes, like proportion of airtime. And thus, other initiatives would be required to move the needle on those other axes. This comports with what we already know about the importance of female role models.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    I don't think role models are enough. I think women need stronger rights. I'm not sure what that would look like. But I think there is a power issue here with very deep roots, such deep roots that merely letting women get paid jobs doesn't fix it per se. I'm frankly tired of my incredibly broken life. I'm feeling like all this shit is just unfixable.
    - rectang 8y ago
      Progress comes after burning out one generation of idealists after another. It won't be "fixed" in your lifetime or mine, but it's getting better. > I don't think role models are enough. I think women need stronger rights. Absolutely. Proportionate representation, stronger rights, role models, and more. (And that, awakeasleep, is the takeaway of the article.)
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        I'm not an idealist. But I'm pretty damn burned out at the moment.
        rectang 8y ago
        I hear you. It's natural to feel that way. You've made some memorable posts, though -- in a forum where ideas are contended, rather than an echo chamber. Thank you.
      - BadassFractal 8y ago
        What stronger rights do you think would move the needle in this kind of situation?
        itronitron 8y ago
        Organizations are filled with people that support its power structure even when the people in power do things that are counter to the organization's goals or mission. The needle will probably only be moved by organizations that support diversity and are able to out-perform others.
        BadassFractal 8y ago
        Completely agreed, however, that doesn't answer my question. I'm still trying to educate myself about what stronger rights are missing that would make a difference in the parity along the various axes discussed above.
        DoreenMichele 8y ago
        When I was in my twenties, I did a lot of reading to try to understand where my life went so very wrong. My takeaway from all that reading: European women sought societal support to help ease the burden of being child-bearers and child-rearers. In contrast, American women seem to have taken the traditional American political position of "Don't tread on me!" European women have generally done a better job of closing the wage gap. The US is the only developed country on the planet with no national maternity leave, as just one example. So you might start there in looking for stuff to read, though my kids are grown and I'm post menopausal, so that is largely irrelevant to my life currently and fails to fully explain my personal frustrations.
    - neffy 8y ago
      It's slower than any of us like. But "merely letting women get paid jobs" - there is nothing mere about the independence that that slowly brings with it - at all levels of society.
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        I'm a former homemaker. Overall, I've had a better life in many ways than many women. I am often hated on by other women, probably because of that. The reality is that in many heterosexual relationships, her job mostly relieves him of traditional male responsibilities. In most cases, even if he's currently unemployed, she comes home and cooks and cleans. Trying to make the transition to a real career post divorce has been very long and hard and feels mostly fruitless. I appear to be the highest ranked woman on HN. I appear to be the only woman to have ever spent time on the leaderboard (under a different handle). No, that in no way seems to open doors for me of a sort that lead to better income. I've accomplished many things that are pretty unique. I get zero credit for it. I get nothing but pissed all over for even trying to state what my accomplishments are. I know there are a lot of factors, such as the fact that I'm medically handicapped. But so was Stephen Hawking. He had public recognition and a real career. I can't seem to find a solution and I'm tired. I just want out of this prison. I'm tired of this shit. And I'm very much at a point where I feel the crux of the issue is my gender and it will simply never be fixed because of that and I very much resent it. Money grows out of power. Not the other way around. Women mostly don't have real power. That fact seems unyielding.
        s-shellfish 8y ago
        In patriarchal societies, men stay fundamentally united while women compete against one another in a divided fashion. Important to not allow our differences and "competitive" advantages to be used as proxies for creating perpetual division. But also, depends on circumstance. Don't have to see gender as being a problem unless you want to. Anything can be used against you for anything that can be used for you. That's both sides of everything. Nothing is ever an advantage, especially when being united (especially in technology!!!) is more advantageous than all the knowledge you could have access to. I'm a software developer, female.
    - dfee 8y ago
      Is stronger relative or comparative? What do you think should be on the table for discussion?
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        I've already said I don't know what that would look like. I have no recommendations for what should be on the table. I just feel strongly that women are missing some important detail and that detail is about power per se.
        aklemm 8y ago
        Yep, this rings true for many women whose careers I’ve been able to watch. Can’t say I have it figured out, but my instinct agrees with yours. Is it that men won’t allow women in the circle due to pride? Or perhaps the only place men give women any kind of full power is within romantic relationships? Or maybe men don’t trust women to help them save face and even nurture them after a power struggle is lost (I think men sort of do this for each other)? I have no idea, but I want to see some brainstorming on it from smart people!
        DoreenMichele 8y ago
        I used to blog about my thoughts on the subject. Those posts sometimes did okay here, though I recently took that blog offline. I think a very large piece of it is that when hetero men are sociable to further their careers ("networking"), everyone is clear what the purpose is. When a man and a woman try to build those same bonds, it rapidly becomes problematic. I think in a nutshell, most men are hesitant to talk overly much with a woman they aren't looking to sleep with because they don't want her, their wife or other people to get the wrong idea. I find that most men don't really want to engage me in discussion unless they are hitting on me. When I try to engage them, they frequently misinterpret it as romantic interest. I don't think most men are intentionally trying to exclude women, though some surely do. I think most men are just trying to avoid scandal of a sort that could ruin their own careers. I don't have a ready solution.
- acjohnson55 8y ago
  > The dirty little secret is that an awful lot of women reinforce the male dominant status quo. See also the white female Trump vote dynamic, when they could have elected a white woman. But I say that somewhat facetiously because there's nothing special about that. A similar dynamic exists anywhere identities, privilege, disadvantage, and circumstance don't neatly align. When the white woman vote is brought up, I often say, "I bet there's a pretty stark divide between white women married to white men versus all other white women". Identity can't be deconstructed in neat little linear slices. And bias isn't just something oppressors do to the opposed -- it's systemic and universal. We're mostly all in this together, even though we gain from or suffer the consequences in different ways.

DoreenMichele 8y ago

I'm a woman. FWIW, when I have been on email lists where the population was mostly female, men still dominated the conversation. The dirty little secret is that an awful lot of women reinforce the male dominant status quo. Women often aligned themselves with the dominant male voice on the list and gave anyone hell who dared stand up to him. This often meant I was a target of such behavior.

rectang 8y ago
So, the data from the story and your both hypothesis suggest that parity in representation alone won't in and of itself result in parity along other axes, like proportion of airtime. And thus, other initiatives would be required to move the needle on those other axes. This comports with what we already know about the importance of female role models.
- DoreenMichele 8y ago
  I don't think role models are enough. I think women need stronger rights. I'm not sure what that would look like. But I think there is a power issue here with very deep roots, such deep roots that merely letting women get paid jobs doesn't fix it per se. I'm frankly tired of my incredibly broken life. I'm feeling like all this shit is just unfixable.
  - rectang 8y ago
    Progress comes after burning out one generation of idealists after another. It won't be "fixed" in your lifetime or mine, but it's getting better. > I don't think role models are enough. I think women need stronger rights. Absolutely. Proportionate representation, stronger rights, role models, and more. (And that, awakeasleep, is the takeaway of the article.)
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      I'm not an idealist. But I'm pretty damn burned out at the moment.
      - rectang 8y ago
        I hear you. It's natural to feel that way. You've made some memorable posts, though -- in a forum where ideas are contended, rather than an echo chamber. Thank you.
    - BadassFractal 8y ago
      What stronger rights do you think would move the needle in this kind of situation?
      - itronitron 8y ago
        Organizations are filled with people that support its power structure even when the people in power do things that are counter to the organization's goals or mission. The needle will probably only be moved by organizations that support diversity and are able to out-perform others.
        BadassFractal 8y ago
        Completely agreed, however, that doesn't answer my question. I'm still trying to educate myself about what stronger rights are missing that would make a difference in the parity along the various axes discussed above.
        DoreenMichele 8y ago
        When I was in my twenties, I did a lot of reading to try to understand where my life went so very wrong. My takeaway from all that reading: European women sought societal support to help ease the burden of being child-bearers and child-rearers. In contrast, American women seem to have taken the traditional American political position of "Don't tread on me!" European women have generally done a better job of closing the wage gap. The US is the only developed country on the planet with no national maternity leave, as just one example. So you might start there in looking for stuff to read, though my kids are grown and I'm post menopausal, so that is largely irrelevant to my life currently and fails to fully explain my personal frustrations.
  - neffy 8y ago
    It's slower than any of us like. But "merely letting women get paid jobs" - there is nothing mere about the independence that that slowly brings with it - at all levels of society.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      I'm a former homemaker. Overall, I've had a better life in many ways than many women. I am often hated on by other women, probably because of that. The reality is that in many heterosexual relationships, her job mostly relieves him of traditional male responsibilities. In most cases, even if he's currently unemployed, she comes home and cooks and cleans. Trying to make the transition to a real career post divorce has been very long and hard and feels mostly fruitless. I appear to be the highest ranked woman on HN. I appear to be the only woman to have ever spent time on the leaderboard (under a different handle). No, that in no way seems to open doors for me of a sort that lead to better income. I've accomplished many things that are pretty unique. I get zero credit for it. I get nothing but pissed all over for even trying to state what my accomplishments are. I know there are a lot of factors, such as the fact that I'm medically handicapped. But so was Stephen Hawking. He had public recognition and a real career. I can't seem to find a solution and I'm tired. I just want out of this prison. I'm tired of this shit. And I'm very much at a point where I feel the crux of the issue is my gender and it will simply never be fixed because of that and I very much resent it. Money grows out of power. Not the other way around. Women mostly don't have real power. That fact seems unyielding.
      - s-shellfish 8y ago
        In patriarchal societies, men stay fundamentally united while women compete against one another in a divided fashion. Important to not allow our differences and "competitive" advantages to be used as proxies for creating perpetual division. But also, depends on circumstance. Don't have to see gender as being a problem unless you want to. Anything can be used against you for anything that can be used for you. That's both sides of everything. Nothing is ever an advantage, especially when being united (especially in technology!!!) is more advantageous than all the knowledge you could have access to. I'm a software developer, female.
  - dfee 8y ago
    Is stronger relative or comparative? What do you think should be on the table for discussion?
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      I've already said I don't know what that would look like. I have no recommendations for what should be on the table. I just feel strongly that women are missing some important detail and that detail is about power per se.
      - aklemm 8y ago
        Yep, this rings true for many women whose careers I’ve been able to watch. Can’t say I have it figured out, but my instinct agrees with yours. Is it that men won’t allow women in the circle due to pride? Or perhaps the only place men give women any kind of full power is within romantic relationships? Or maybe men don’t trust women to help them save face and even nurture them after a power struggle is lost (I think men sort of do this for each other)? I have no idea, but I want to see some brainstorming on it from smart people!
        DoreenMichele 8y ago
        I used to blog about my thoughts on the subject. Those posts sometimes did okay here, though I recently took that blog offline. I think a very large piece of it is that when hetero men are sociable to further their careers ("networking"), everyone is clear what the purpose is. When a man and a woman try to build those same bonds, it rapidly becomes problematic. I think in a nutshell, most men are hesitant to talk overly much with a woman they aren't looking to sleep with because they don't want her, their wife or other people to get the wrong idea. I find that most men don't really want to engage me in discussion unless they are hitting on me. When I try to engage them, they frequently misinterpret it as romantic interest. I don't think most men are intentionally trying to exclude women, though some surely do. I think most men are just trying to avoid scandal of a sort that could ruin their own careers. I don't have a ready solution.
acjohnson55 8y ago
> The dirty little secret is that an awful lot of women reinforce the male dominant status quo. See also the white female Trump vote dynamic, when they could have elected a white woman. But I say that somewhat facetiously because there's nothing special about that. A similar dynamic exists anywhere identities, privilege, disadvantage, and circumstance don't neatly align. When the white woman vote is brought up, I often say, "I bet there's a pretty stark divide between white women married to white men versus all other white women". Identity can't be deconstructed in neat little linear slices. And bias isn't just something oppressors do to the opposed -- it's systemic and universal. We're mostly all in this together, even though we gain from or suffer the consequences in different ways.