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Speaking of islands... How about Hawaii? They burn a lot of oil to generate electricity. I wish we could speed up the move to wind and solar there. https://ww

Speaking of islands... How about Hawaii? They burn a lot of oil to generate electricity. I wish we could speed up the move to wind and solar there. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/power-plants/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c878c73f2d01 https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/power-plant...

mikestew 8y ago
"Hawaii gets two-thirds of its electricity from oil, the only state where it is the leading energy source." (emphasis mine) Man, you'd think it would almost be state law that you have some panels on your roof in Hawaii. Too lazy to look it up and do math, but if it's economically feasible to use solar in Seattle, it's gotta be for damned sure a quick ROI in sunny Hawaii.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  There's so much that it destabilized the grid and the power company got mad. There's a policy initiative about it: http://www.hawaiicleanenergyinitiative.org/ http://www.hawaiicleanenergyinitiative.org/ I guess it can be sort of slow moving (2045) and still more ambitious than other states.
sulam 8y ago
Hawaii has _too much_ sun, because of the isolated nature of its electric grid, meaning they have nowhere to shift power to or from. If we had a good storage option, or if one was deployed in Hawaii, the situation would change dramatically.
- foota 8y ago
  I wonder if they could do some sort of pumped hydro with the ocean. Dam off a bay somewhere?
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    Salt water is hard to work with. Here's what a vaguely correctly sized station looks like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power... The upper reservoir is measured in miles and is 300 feet above the lower reservoir. One half as big would still be pretty useful, but that's still big.
    - njarboe 8y ago
      Also, the volcanic geology of Hawaii means you want to have a very reliable seal on the bottom of that reservoir or you will be leaking tons of salt water into the local groundwater system. Possible, as modern landfills are sealed this way, but much more expensive than a fresh water lake. Not sure it has ever been done, actually. As for damning off a bay; that does not work so well as you would want a decent elevation drop for energy storage. Edit: Reading over the Ludington pumped station wikipedia page, it does have a sealed bottom. It is on another naturally porous geologic setting, sand dunes, and is above the water table. Thus the need for a sealed reservoir.
  - walrus01 8y ago
    Salt water is basically cancer, ask anyone that's ever maintained a 45' yacht... You don't want to deal with it unless you absolutely need to. Anything exposed to salt water 24x7x365 is a study in accelerated entropy.
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  They could just boil the ocean if they really need to dump energy.
  - snowwindwaves 8y ago
    You can also just disconnect solar panels if large swaths of generation is not required. Who will pay for a solar plant that is either disconnected or otherwise wastes the energy generated?
    - discordance 8y ago
      If we get to that point, it sounds like we haven't designed the system to our needs. In this case; deploy more storage to match the output of the panels and our energy requirements, or simply deploy less panels.
      - snowwindwaves 8y ago
        Who puts up the capital for energy storage plants that don't generate any power? How many cycles does the battery in a smart phone last for? How are grid scale batteries any different? The reason solar isn't pervasive yet is not technical it is the economics to replace dispatchable generation aren't there yet.
        adrianN 8y ago
        Grid scale batteries are different in that they can use different chemistry (volume is not as important), better cooling and less aggressive charge/discharge cycles to increase lifetime.
        snowwindwaves 8y ago
        I was under the impression that Tessa's product they sold to Australia was essentially a bunch of tesla vehicle batteries which are lithium ion which is the same as laptops and phones. Is there some distinction? I have seen and old grid scale battery at fort Bragg. It was lead acid and the size of a city block and could power the whole base for three days, but it was for backup not regular cycles. I thought new grid scale batteries were different from this one. Less agressive charge/discharge cycles means overprovisioning which means more cost.if you Want the battery to power the island overnight in 5 years then you have to get a battery that is 5x the MWH that you need. Which is a fine technical solution but makes the economics worse.
- petre 8y ago
  Flywheel storage?
- adrianN 8y ago
  You can always run a desalination plant.
giancarlostoro 8y ago
Puerto Rico could really start using renewable energy. After Maria at least one school went fully solar (which makes me believe that all Public Schools should go solar... since they're mostly in use during day time).

mikestew 8y ago

"Hawaii gets two-thirds of its electricity from oil, the only state where it is the leading energy source." (emphasis mine) Man, you'd think it would almost be state law that you have some panels on your roof in Hawaii. Too lazy to look it up and do math, but if it's economically feasible to use solar in Seattle, it's gotta be for damned sure a quick ROI in sunny Hawaii.

maxerickson 8y ago
There's so much that it destabilized the grid and the power company got mad. There's a policy initiative about it: http://www.hawaiicleanenergyinitiative.org/ http://www.hawaiicleanenergyinitiative.org/ I guess it can be sort of slow moving (2045) and still more ambitious than other states.

sulam 8y ago

Hawaii has _too much_ sun, because of the isolated nature of its electric grid, meaning they have nowhere to shift power to or from. If we had a good storage option, or if one was deployed in Hawaii, the situation would change dramatically.

foota 8y ago
I wonder if they could do some sort of pumped hydro with the ocean. Dam off a bay somewhere?
- maxerickson 8y ago
  Salt water is hard to work with. Here's what a vaguely correctly sized station looks like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludington_Pumped_Storage_Power... The upper reservoir is measured in miles and is 300 feet above the lower reservoir. One half as big would still be pretty useful, but that's still big.
  - njarboe 8y ago
    Also, the volcanic geology of Hawaii means you want to have a very reliable seal on the bottom of that reservoir or you will be leaking tons of salt water into the local groundwater system. Possible, as modern landfills are sealed this way, but much more expensive than a fresh water lake. Not sure it has ever been done, actually. As for damning off a bay; that does not work so well as you would want a decent elevation drop for energy storage. Edit: Reading over the Ludington pumped station wikipedia page, it does have a sealed bottom. It is on another naturally porous geologic setting, sand dunes, and is above the water table. Thus the need for a sealed reservoir.
- walrus01 8y ago
  Salt water is basically cancer, ask anyone that's ever maintained a 45' yacht... You don't want to deal with it unless you absolutely need to. Anything exposed to salt water 24x7x365 is a study in accelerated entropy.
oh_sigh 8y ago
They could just boil the ocean if they really need to dump energy.
- snowwindwaves 8y ago
  You can also just disconnect solar panels if large swaths of generation is not required. Who will pay for a solar plant that is either disconnected or otherwise wastes the energy generated?
  - discordance 8y ago
    If we get to that point, it sounds like we haven't designed the system to our needs. In this case; deploy more storage to match the output of the panels and our energy requirements, or simply deploy less panels.
    - snowwindwaves 8y ago
      Who puts up the capital for energy storage plants that don't generate any power? How many cycles does the battery in a smart phone last for? How are grid scale batteries any different? The reason solar isn't pervasive yet is not technical it is the economics to replace dispatchable generation aren't there yet.
      - adrianN 8y ago
        Grid scale batteries are different in that they can use different chemistry (volume is not as important), better cooling and less aggressive charge/discharge cycles to increase lifetime.
        snowwindwaves 8y ago
        I was under the impression that Tessa's product they sold to Australia was essentially a bunch of tesla vehicle batteries which are lithium ion which is the same as laptops and phones. Is there some distinction? I have seen and old grid scale battery at fort Bragg. It was lead acid and the size of a city block and could power the whole base for three days, but it was for backup not regular cycles. I thought new grid scale batteries were different from this one. Less agressive charge/discharge cycles means overprovisioning which means more cost.if you Want the battery to power the island overnight in 5 years then you have to get a battery that is 5x the MWH that you need. Which is a fine technical solution but makes the economics worse.
petre 8y ago
Flywheel storage?
adrianN 8y ago
You can always run a desalination plant.

giancarlostoro 8y ago

Puerto Rico could really start using renewable energy. After Maria at least one school went fully solar (which makes me believe that all Public Schools should go solar... since they're mostly in use during day time).