10 ms·

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefight

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds of thousands of prisoners are also employed in jobs outside and inside the prisons, most commonly doing work to maintain the prisons. According to the Prison Policy Initiative, the average prison worker makes around 85 cents an hour. In 2017, inmates in Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, and Texas were not paid for most of their work. Proponents of these low-paying jobs have argued that inmates benefit from the work experience and that prisons, which are already often cash-strapped, cannot afford to pay more; opponents have argued that prisoners do need real wages to be able to buy basic necessities other than food in the prisons.” Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not.

dominotw 8y ago
> Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. CA has to release thousands of prisons soon due to funding issues.
- r00fus 8y ago
  The biggest crime is if they come back into society without the ability to add to the workforce (due to their being former prisoners) or resources to exercise their entrepreneurship (ie, no connections or learning). Then they are targets for recidivism and society loses out. Otherwise, I'm perfectly fine with less prisons.
  - Hydraulix989 8y ago
    The biggest problem then is the stigma of having a criminal record for future job interviews' background checks. Ordinary possession shouldn't leave a lasting black mark on one's record or there will definitely be recidivism barring any cultural change in attitude towards hiring ex-criminals.
    - oarsinsync 8y ago
      Not sure why you're being down voted. For the vast majority of jobs, recreational drug use is commonplace already. I'm not sure the solution is to ensure that the minority that get caught are unable to ever go back to being productive, effectively being forced into finding alternative means to pay their rent/bills/etc.
- noobermin 8y ago
  Given the sheer number of people in jail due to drug possession, including a drug that is now legal in CA, it's clear a good number of those people shouldn't be in jail in the first place. BTW, I'm not talking legally, I'm talking morally, they should have never gone to jail or prison in the first place for mere possession.
nosseo 8y ago
> "opponents have argued that prisoners do need real wages to be able to buy basic necessities other than food in the prisons" This seems like a problem even if prisoner wages are raised. If we incarcerate people, we should provide them with toothbrushes even if they can't/won't risk their lives fighting fires for a pittance.
aggronn 8y ago
While we're talking about slavery, it might be important to mention that the constitution specifically allows slavery in this context: > "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." - 13th amendment
- noobermin 8y ago
  IANAL but a naive reading of that could justify community service may be. These prisoners were not convicted and sentenced to be firemen.
  - johnchristopher 8y ago
    Are you implying one could be convicted and sentenced to be a slave ?
    - noobermin 8y ago
      No. I am implying they weren't sentenced to be a firemen or a slave so they shouldn't be. People have been sentenced to do community service which I generally don't think is compensated. Going to be honest, I am ignorant and haven't been incarcerated so I am lucky, but from what I can tell community service tends to be a lighter punishment than prison, and doesn't tend to be as exploitative as the uncompensated labor described by these activists. It is also proscribed by the court and not up to wardens and their friends to decide its terms and extent. And no, I don't think anyone should be sentenced to be a slave or a firemen. Any such sentence probably would violate the 8th amendment. [0] Insightful: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17813698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17813698
      - johnchristopher 8y ago
        Sorry, chalk it up to fatigue and the consequent decline of my comprehension skills. I don't know why I misunderstand that sentence so badly.
AndyMcConachie 8y ago
s/employed/enslaved/g One thing we can do right now is start to use the correct language. Involuntary labor is not employment and we shouldn't call it such. There is even a market where you can buy their products. https://unicor.gov/index.aspx https://unicor.gov/index.aspx You can even outsource work to prison slaves. https://vimeo.com/125010485 https://vimeo.com/125010485 There are even private companies that have prison slaves work for them and keep the profits. http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ Just like slavery did in the American south pre-1865, prison slave labor depresses wages in any industry it operates in.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- modells 8y ago
  It's disgusting but a reality that the 13th amendment loophole expressly permits slavery of convicts. And so the Civil War was won by the South since Plantations 2.0 continue unimpeded. Some counties' DA's lock up as many people as possible in order for officials to earn kickbacks from private prisons run by the likes of GEO Group.
- mywittyname 8y ago
  It should be noted that the US Constitution allows prisoners to be treated as slaves: > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
  - Broken_Hippo 8y ago
    Just because it is in the constitution doesn't make it right. That is a document designed to be changed, after all. Women couldn't vote for quite some time. Some people weren't fully human. Only landowners could vote. And so on. Furthermore, it being in the constitution still doesn't detract from it being slavery.
rayiner 8y ago
> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a legitimate place for prison. These people are already a burden on society--housing a prisoner costs tens of thousands of dollars--why shouldn't they be forced to take on some of their own upkeep? Note that we do this with another class of people who are wards of someone else: children. Nobody is arguing you should have to pay kids minimum wage for doing chores...
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  If you're comparing grown adults to children in this scenario you're making a fallacious comparison right out of the gate.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    That's one difference, sure, but the two situations are similar as well. In both cases, a person's basic life needs (food, housing, etc.) are met by someone else. When it comes to children, we generally accept that forcing people to contribute to their own upkeep is not wrong, whether it's working on the farm or cooking, etc. Why is it different for prisoners?
    - lovich 8y ago
      We explicitly do not say it's ok to force children to pay for their own upkeep. A parent is required to take care of their child and that is legally enforced, but a child can refuse all chores and the government doesn't punish them. In fact, the government will punish the parents if they try to not take care of their child or punish them too severely for not doing their chores
      - rayiner 8y ago
lovich 8y ago
Additionally, does the work experience card even work if many of these prisoners are legally barred from working the same jobs?
celim307 8y ago
Not to mention, who can compete with a jail offering labor for 1$ an hour? It's unfair to both the prisoners and anyone else in the manual labor business
- sjwright 8y ago
  I doubt their labor is costing clients $1. The prison is certainly charging a lot more than that and pocketing the difference.
  - sdenton4 8y ago
    It's the same effect. If you cut labor costs by a factor of ten (or more), you can undercut the competition easily and pocket the difference. Hence, anti-competitive.
ransom1538 8y ago
Remember the innocent. With how plea bargains work: [ you can take the 1.5 year sentence or risk 15 years with trial] - there may be many working the fire lines totally innocent.
modells 8y ago
Prisoners are also unable to become smokejumpers or hot shots because they not only have a criminal record, but don't get the same training such as the EMT requirement, yet they're put in harm's way. Democracy Now covered this topic extensively.
- meowface 8y ago
  The problem is if this were regulated or changed in some way, it would take only one or two instances of an ex-convict firefighter harming or killing someone before a very high number of people start demanding a return to a zero-tolerance convict hiring policy. It's often a CYA and public perception issue: org X receives application from convict, considers fallout if convict does something bad, realizes it'll become a PR nightmare and that they'll be torn to shreds for permitting the hire. The risk is never outweighed by the benefit, in their eyes.
  - distances 8y ago
    > It's often a CYA and public perception issue: org X receives application from convict, considers fallout if convict does something bad, realizes it'll become a PR nightmare and that they'll be torn to shreds for permitting the hire. Many (most?) western countries do not publish convict names unless it's very serious, such as murder. There's no reason a typical employer, let alone the public, should know you served time in the past.
    - candiodari 8y ago
      Such as ? Employers demanding a paper from the police listing all your convictions is everywhere in Western Europe. Even a traffic-related conviction can be a problem. This is also something that comes up when talking to homeless in the Netherlands. Tldr: conviction for something done on the job (can be traffic accident on the way home) -> fired and significant money -> no new job because "strafblad" -> poverty -> homeless
    - meowface 8y ago
      In the US, most (all?) convictions are public record, and the ones that aren't public record can still be found by employers who retain background check companies.
ada1981 8y ago
It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. This actually seems like a pretty good deal, what would you pay to get a day off your sentence? That said, I think the Prision system is fucked, has horrible incentives, private companies abuse bought prison labor, etc. etc. But I actually felt like this program was pretty good - though they ought to let them become fire fighters!
- conanbatt 8y ago
  > It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. The perverse incentive of increasing prison times to generate more cheap labor.
  - ada1981 8y ago
    This is certainly a huge issue. The meta-system is completely fucked, no question. But this subsystem is being presented in a skewed way. Yes it’s $1/hour; but you also earn a day of freedom for each day you work.
    - phry 8y ago
      'Arbeit macht frei' eh
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - jacobush 8y ago
      Only 9999 days to go.
- PhasmaFelis 8y ago
  > It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. Interesting. You could conceivably rationalize that as being equivalent to a fair wage--every day you work gets you one extra day closer to getting out and starting a real job. Of course that still ignores the obvious problem of how hard it is for a broke ex-con to find work. But it's better than nothing, I guess.
WhompingWindows 8y ago
Did society put people away, or did the policy-makers who have come to represent a shrinking fraction of the electorate and an increasingly strong corporate sector? If for-profit prisons lobby to maintain non-violent drug offenses and the ludicrously failed drug war, which swell prison ranks and the coffers of prison ownership, then how is it "society at large" that is to blame? Issue after issue, money is a terrible influence in our politics.
rule_follower 8y ago
>Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. Sitting in a cage or a large room with other inmates with nothing productive to do can itself be considered a form of psychological torture, which is precisely what some proponents of prison industry have argued: https://sci-hub.tw/10.2307/1147470 https://sci-hub.tw/10.2307/1147470
- acomar 8y ago
  Maybe we should rehabilitate criminals in some fashion that doesn't involve indentured servitude or putting them in cages and reserve the latter only for those who cannot be rehabilitated. Trying to argue that forced labor is more humane is morally bankrupt from the get-go. That it's being made by people with a literal financial incentive to see the system not change only underscores that point.
  - rule_follower 8y ago
    Private prisons house a tiny fraction of US inmates, an estimated 8% in 2015[0] and the federal numbers are exclusively for the detention of foreigners illegally in the country. [0]: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/11/u-s-private-prison-population-has-declined-in-recent-years/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/11/u-s-private-...
    - acomar 8y ago
      I'm a prison abolitionist. Your reply could not possibly fall on ears that care less about your point.
      - rule_follower 8y ago
        You were the one who mentioned financial incentives/conflicts vis-a-vis private prisons.
        jacobush 8y ago
ConfSibi 8y ago
>"Hundreds of thousands of prisoners are also employed in jobs outside and inside the prisons, most commonly doing work to maintain the prisons." They're mostly working just to keep from being bored while serving their sentences. The work is voluntary. It does not amount to anything close to slavery or forced labor. Of course many do benefit from work, which is why many of them volunteer... It's not "paternalistic" at all to recognize that.
nickpinkston 8y ago
However, as someone whose Dad is in prison, a lot of these guys really do want to get out there and do something useful and want this experience. Many times the people complaining are privileged elites who are inferring what these populations want, but I would caution them to not make assumptions and do their research. It is not unambiguously bad to do this. We can talk about the long-term reforms of prison, but there are short-term concerns too that might be helpful to them.
- Ar-Curunir 8y ago
  That's true, but if you're going to use labour, then pay for labour. Anything else is slavery. Especially when this "experience" is not useful post-prison.
  - Retra 8y ago
    "Experience" isn't really a form of payment anyhow.
    - jacobush 8y ago
      But it is, or interns would be paid in full.
      - effingwewt 8y ago
        As they should be. Interns are regularly given work that should be given to paid employees and many businesses now see internships as free labor. How many fields of employment would you work for free just for experience? And then to still be paid as a newly graduated hire because 'internship isnt a real job or experience'. Getting over on someone seems more and more prevalent these days. I swear businesses weren't as bad about these things in the 80's and 90's,maybe it's rose-colored glasses and all that jazz.
        erikpukinskis 8y ago
        You’re right interns are often given work that should be paid. But not all of it need be paid. If I take an intern along to a job that I could’ve done in the same time alone, but I let the intern do the work and supervise them on how to do it, that needn’t be paid because the intern is not providing value, they are just getting training.
cmurf 8y ago
American voters are chock full of paternalistic bullshit. They consistently vote for retribution, and the absolute cheapest way to house prisoners, and give them cheap public defenders. Voters consistently consider white collar crime as relatively benign with sentences below the sentencing guidelines; whereas non-violent drug crimes (let alone violent crimes) consistently at the highest range of sentencing guidelines. It is a society that deeply believes in retribution for "lower class" crimes and slap on the wrist for "high class" crimes. I don't like it, but I absolutely see it.
mpax 8y ago
Wait, you mean privatized prisons are a moral hazard? /s
- orangecat 8y ago
  They are, and so are public sector unions: https://theintercept.com/2016/05/18/ca-marijuana-measure/ https://theintercept.com/2016/05/18/ca-marijuana-measure/
em3rgent0rdr 8y ago
Amazes me that occupational licensing laws will prevent these inmates after being released from working as firefighter (because CA won't let former criminals work for the government), while somehow CA is fine having them work as slaves for the government while incarcerated.
- freedomben 8y ago
  After working for and dealing with government at various levels, nothing amazes me anymore. They are layered with contradictions, perverse incentives, and sometimes corruption.
wutbrodo 8y ago
> The same argument could justify slavery The same argument _was_ used to justify slavery, for a couple centuries.
mnm1 8y ago
> The same argument could justify slavery. Not to be pedantic, but this is slavery, allowed by our own constitution. Of course this argument is used to justify it although under the law, no justification is needed. What we need to do is to get rid of slavery altogether in America in 2018 and beyond. It's ridiculous that we call out other countries for human rights abuses while we have slavery all throughout our prisons, especially in the south (Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, and Texas).
- ConfSibi 8y ago
  How is it slavery if it's a volunteer program?
gremlinsinc 8y ago
My biggest beef...is we're worried about losing jobs to Mexicans, but allow slavery here in America...I bet a LOT of slaves..err prisoners have stolen jobs from so-called 'free-loading' mexicans who stole them from Americans....or stole them directly from Americans... Why isn't the 'right' as upset about this as they are illegal immigrants?
- freedomben 8y ago
  I am not a conservative, but I have a lot of conservative friends so I feel comfortable saying this. The "right" will usually admit that there are incentive issues in the system, but there is no philosophical issue with incarceration. They would also say that prisoners should work to pay their own way, because it isn't fair to tax payers to shoulder the burden when tax payers didn't do the crime (this is why they love Sheriff Joe Arpaio). In general they are very supportive of "law and order" and police/military/etc in general. Of course there will be conservatives that don't feel this way, but many do.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

dominotw 8y ago

> Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. CA has to release thousands of prisons soon due to funding issues.

r00fus 8y ago
The biggest crime is if they come back into society without the ability to add to the workforce (due to their being former prisoners) or resources to exercise their entrepreneurship (ie, no connections or learning). Then they are targets for recidivism and society loses out. Otherwise, I'm perfectly fine with less prisons.
- Hydraulix989 8y ago
  The biggest problem then is the stigma of having a criminal record for future job interviews' background checks. Ordinary possession shouldn't leave a lasting black mark on one's record or there will definitely be recidivism barring any cultural change in attitude towards hiring ex-criminals.
  - oarsinsync 8y ago
    Not sure why you're being down voted. For the vast majority of jobs, recreational drug use is commonplace already. I'm not sure the solution is to ensure that the minority that get caught are unable to ever go back to being productive, effectively being forced into finding alternative means to pay their rent/bills/etc.
noobermin 8y ago
Given the sheer number of people in jail due to drug possession, including a drug that is now legal in CA, it's clear a good number of those people shouldn't be in jail in the first place. BTW, I'm not talking legally, I'm talking morally, they should have never gone to jail or prison in the first place for mere possession.

nosseo 8y ago

> "opponents have argued that prisoners do need real wages to be able to buy basic necessities other than food in the prisons" This seems like a problem even if prisoner wages are raised. If we incarcerate people, we should provide them with toothbrushes even if they can't/won't risk their lives fighting fires for a pittance.

aggronn 8y ago

While we're talking about slavery, it might be important to mention that the constitution specifically allows slavery in this context: > "neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." - 13th amendment

noobermin 8y ago
IANAL but a naive reading of that could justify community service may be. These prisoners were not convicted and sentenced to be firemen.
- johnchristopher 8y ago
  Are you implying one could be convicted and sentenced to be a slave ?
  - noobermin 8y ago
    No. I am implying they weren't sentenced to be a firemen or a slave so they shouldn't be. People have been sentenced to do community service which I generally don't think is compensated. Going to be honest, I am ignorant and haven't been incarcerated so I am lucky, but from what I can tell community service tends to be a lighter punishment than prison, and doesn't tend to be as exploitative as the uncompensated labor described by these activists. It is also proscribed by the court and not up to wardens and their friends to decide its terms and extent. And no, I don't think anyone should be sentenced to be a slave or a firemen. Any such sentence probably would violate the 8th amendment. [0] Insightful: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17813698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17813698
    - johnchristopher 8y ago
      Sorry, chalk it up to fatigue and the consequent decline of my comprehension skills. I don't know why I misunderstand that sentence so badly.

AndyMcConachie 8y ago

s/employed/enslaved/g One thing we can do right now is start to use the correct language. Involuntary labor is not employment and we shouldn't call it such. There is even a market where you can buy their products. https://unicor.gov/index.aspx https://unicor.gov/index.aspx You can even outsource work to prison slaves. https://vimeo.com/125010485 https://vimeo.com/125010485 There are even private companies that have prison slaves work for them and keep the profits. http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ http://vltp.net/casinos-prison-labor-strange-bedfellows/ Just like slavery did in the American south pre-1865, prison slave labor depresses wages in any industry it operates in.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
modells 8y ago
It's disgusting but a reality that the 13th amendment loophole expressly permits slavery of convicts. And so the Civil War was won by the South since Plantations 2.0 continue unimpeded. Some counties' DA's lock up as many people as possible in order for officials to earn kickbacks from private prisons run by the likes of GEO Group.
mywittyname 8y ago
It should be noted that the US Constitution allows prisoners to be treated as slaves: > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago
  Just because it is in the constitution doesn't make it right. That is a document designed to be changed, after all. Women couldn't vote for quite some time. Some people weren't fully human. Only landowners could vote. And so on. Furthermore, it being in the constitution still doesn't detract from it being slavery.

rayiner 8y ago

> Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument, but why is the focus solely on what is "good for them?" Discussions of over-incarceration aside, there is a legitimate place for prison. These people are already a burden on society--housing a prisoner costs tens of thousands of dollars--why shouldn't they be forced to take on some of their own upkeep? Note that we do this with another class of people who are wards of someone else: children. Nobody is arguing you should have to pay kids minimum wage for doing chores...

fzeroracer 8y ago
If you're comparing grown adults to children in this scenario you're making a fallacious comparison right out of the gate.
- rayiner 8y ago
  That's one difference, sure, but the two situations are similar as well. In both cases, a person's basic life needs (food, housing, etc.) are met by someone else. When it comes to children, we generally accept that forcing people to contribute to their own upkeep is not wrong, whether it's working on the farm or cooking, etc. Why is it different for prisoners?
  - lovich 8y ago
    We explicitly do not say it's ok to force children to pay for their own upkeep. A parent is required to take care of their child and that is legally enforced, but a child can refuse all chores and the government doesn't punish them. In fact, the government will punish the parents if they try to not take care of their child or punish them too severely for not doing their chores
    - rayiner 8y ago

lovich 8y ago

Additionally, does the work experience card even work if many of these prisoners are legally barred from working the same jobs?

celim307 8y ago

Not to mention, who can compete with a jail offering labor for 1$ an hour? It's unfair to both the prisoners and anyone else in the manual labor business

sjwright 8y ago
I doubt their labor is costing clients $1. The prison is certainly charging a lot more than that and pocketing the difference.
- sdenton4 8y ago
  It's the same effect. If you cut labor costs by a factor of ten (or more), you can undercut the competition easily and pocket the difference. Hence, anti-competitive.

ransom1538 8y ago

Remember the innocent. With how plea bargains work: [ you can take the 1.5 year sentence or risk 15 years with trial] - there may be many working the fire lines totally innocent.

modells 8y ago

Prisoners are also unable to become smokejumpers or hot shots because they not only have a criminal record, but don't get the same training such as the EMT requirement, yet they're put in harm's way. Democracy Now covered this topic extensively.

meowface 8y ago
The problem is if this were regulated or changed in some way, it would take only one or two instances of an ex-convict firefighter harming or killing someone before a very high number of people start demanding a return to a zero-tolerance convict hiring policy. It's often a CYA and public perception issue: org X receives application from convict, considers fallout if convict does something bad, realizes it'll become a PR nightmare and that they'll be torn to shreds for permitting the hire. The risk is never outweighed by the benefit, in their eyes.
- distances 8y ago
  > It's often a CYA and public perception issue: org X receives application from convict, considers fallout if convict does something bad, realizes it'll become a PR nightmare and that they'll be torn to shreds for permitting the hire. Many (most?) western countries do not publish convict names unless it's very serious, such as murder. There's no reason a typical employer, let alone the public, should know you served time in the past.
  - candiodari 8y ago
    Such as ? Employers demanding a paper from the police listing all your convictions is everywhere in Western Europe. Even a traffic-related conviction can be a problem. This is also something that comes up when talking to homeless in the Netherlands. Tldr: conviction for something done on the job (can be traffic accident on the way home) -> fired and significant money -> no new job because "strafblad" -> poverty -> homeless
  - meowface 8y ago
    In the US, most (all?) convictions are public record, and the ones that aren't public record can still be found by employers who retain background check companies.

ada1981 8y ago

It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. This actually seems like a pretty good deal, what would you pay to get a day off your sentence? That said, I think the Prision system is fucked, has horrible incentives, private companies abuse bought prison labor, etc. etc. But I actually felt like this program was pretty good - though they ought to let them become fire fighters!

conanbatt 8y ago
> It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. The perverse incentive of increasing prison times to generate more cheap labor.
- ada1981 8y ago
  This is certainly a huge issue. The meta-system is completely fucked, no question. But this subsystem is being presented in a skewed way. Yes it’s $1/hour; but you also earn a day of freedom for each day you work.
  - phry 8y ago
    'Arbeit macht frei' eh
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - jacobush 8y ago
    Only 9999 days to go.
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
> It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. Interesting. You could conceivably rationalize that as being equivalent to a fair wage--every day you work gets you one extra day closer to getting out and starting a real job. Of course that still ignores the obvious problem of how hard it is for a broke ex-con to find work. But it's better than nothing, I guess.

WhompingWindows 8y ago

Did society put people away, or did the policy-makers who have come to represent a shrinking fraction of the electorate and an increasingly strong corporate sector? If for-profit prisons lobby to maintain non-violent drug offenses and the ludicrously failed drug war, which swell prison ranks and the coffers of prison ownership, then how is it "society at large" that is to blame? Issue after issue, money is a terrible influence in our politics.

rule_follower 8y ago

>Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. Sitting in a cage or a large room with other inmates with nothing productive to do can itself be considered a form of psychological torture, which is precisely what some proponents of prison industry have argued: https://sci-hub.tw/10.2307/1147470 https://sci-hub.tw/10.2307/1147470

acomar 8y ago
Maybe we should rehabilitate criminals in some fashion that doesn't involve indentured servitude or putting them in cages and reserve the latter only for those who cannot be rehabilitated. Trying to argue that forced labor is more humane is morally bankrupt from the get-go. That it's being made by people with a literal financial incentive to see the system not change only underscores that point.
- rule_follower 8y ago
  Private prisons house a tiny fraction of US inmates, an estimated 8% in 2015[0] and the federal numbers are exclusively for the detention of foreigners illegally in the country. [0]: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/11/u-s-private-prison-population-has-declined-in-recent-years/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/11/u-s-private-...
  - acomar 8y ago
    I'm a prison abolitionist. Your reply could not possibly fall on ears that care less about your point.
    - rule_follower 8y ago
      You were the one who mentioned financial incentives/conflicts vis-a-vis private prisons.
      - jacobush 8y ago

ConfSibi 8y ago

>"Hundreds of thousands of prisoners are also employed in jobs outside and inside the prisons, most commonly doing work to maintain the prisons." They're mostly working just to keep from being bored while serving their sentences. The work is voluntary. It does not amount to anything close to slavery or forced labor. Of course many do benefit from work, which is why many of them volunteer... It's not "paternalistic" at all to recognize that.

nickpinkston 8y ago

However, as someone whose Dad is in prison, a lot of these guys really do want to get out there and do something useful and want this experience. Many times the people complaining are privileged elites who are inferring what these populations want, but I would caution them to not make assumptions and do their research. It is not unambiguously bad to do this. We can talk about the long-term reforms of prison, but there are short-term concerns too that might be helpful to them.

Ar-Curunir 8y ago
That's true, but if you're going to use labour, then pay for labour. Anything else is slavery. Especially when this "experience" is not useful post-prison.
- Retra 8y ago
  "Experience" isn't really a form of payment anyhow.
  - jacobush 8y ago
    But it is, or interns would be paid in full.
    - effingwewt 8y ago
      As they should be. Interns are regularly given work that should be given to paid employees and many businesses now see internships as free labor. How many fields of employment would you work for free just for experience? And then to still be paid as a newly graduated hire because 'internship isnt a real job or experience'. Getting over on someone seems more and more prevalent these days. I swear businesses weren't as bad about these things in the 80's and 90's,maybe it's rose-colored glasses and all that jazz.
      - erikpukinskis 8y ago
        You’re right interns are often given work that should be paid. But not all of it need be paid. If I take an intern along to a job that I could’ve done in the same time alone, but I let the intern do the work and supervise them on how to do it, that needn’t be paid because the intern is not providing value, they are just getting training.

cmurf 8y ago

American voters are chock full of paternalistic bullshit. They consistently vote for retribution, and the absolute cheapest way to house prisoners, and give them cheap public defenders. Voters consistently consider white collar crime as relatively benign with sentences below the sentencing guidelines; whereas non-violent drug crimes (let alone violent crimes) consistently at the highest range of sentencing guidelines. It is a society that deeply believes in retribution for "lower class" crimes and slap on the wrist for "high class" crimes. I don't like it, but I absolutely see it.

mpax 8y ago

Wait, you mean privatized prisons are a moral hazard? /s

orangecat 8y ago
They are, and so are public sector unions: https://theintercept.com/2016/05/18/ca-marijuana-measure/ https://theintercept.com/2016/05/18/ca-marijuana-measure/

em3rgent0rdr 8y ago

Amazes me that occupational licensing laws will prevent these inmates after being released from working as firefighter (because CA won't let former criminals work for the government), while somehow CA is fine having them work as slaves for the government while incarcerated.

freedomben 8y ago
After working for and dealing with government at various levels, nothing amazes me anymore. They are layered with contradictions, perverse incentives, and sometimes corruption.

wutbrodo 8y ago

> The same argument could justify slavery The same argument _was_ used to justify slavery, for a couple centuries.

mnm1 8y ago

> The same argument could justify slavery. Not to be pedantic, but this is slavery, allowed by our own constitution. Of course this argument is used to justify it although under the law, no justification is needed. What we need to do is to get rid of slavery altogether in America in 2018 and beyond. It's ridiculous that we call out other countries for human rights abuses while we have slavery all throughout our prisons, especially in the south (Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, and Texas).

ConfSibi 8y ago
How is it slavery if it's a volunteer program?

gremlinsinc 8y ago

My biggest beef...is we're worried about losing jobs to Mexicans, but allow slavery here in America...I bet a LOT of slaves..err prisoners have stolen jobs from so-called 'free-loading' mexicans who stole them from Americans....or stole them directly from Americans... Why isn't the 'right' as upset about this as they are illegal immigrants?

freedomben 8y ago
I am not a conservative, but I have a lot of conservative friends so I feel comfortable saying this. The "right" will usually admit that there are incentive issues in the system, but there is no philosophical issue with incarceration. They would also say that prisoners should work to pay their own way, because it isn't fair to tax payers to shoulder the burden when tax payers didn't do the crime (this is why they love Sheriff Joe Arpaio). In general they are very supportive of "law and order" and police/military/etc in general. Of course there will be conservatives that don't feel this way, but many do.

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