7 ms·

It's technically not illegal under the 13th amendment. > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall ha

It's technically not illegal under the 13th amendment. > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Not saying I agree with that part of the 13th amendment, I abhor it personally.

AcerbicZero 8y ago
The only time I heard anyone being sentenced to "hard labor" was in the military, so it seems like if you're given incarceration at your sentencing then that shouldn't automatically mean you're being sentenced to work while you're there? The punishment is incarceration, not labor, right? I guess this is an area where I'm exceptionally under-educated, so if you've got any good suggestions for reading on the topic I'd appreciate it.
- rascul 8y ago
  See Louisiana for an example. http://www.lafayetteowilawyer.com/helpfulvideos/beingsentencedtohardlaborinlouisiana/ http://www.lafayetteowilawyer.com/helpfulvideos/beingsentenc...
- pythonslayer 8y ago
  It makes sense to me. As a person with Autism, I have always been scared of a misunderstanding with a police officer that would land me in jail, which is a common issue. I would calm my nerves by telling myself “it will be OK. I will think of it as a lot of time to read.” I later learned books are very hard to come by at prisons, which adds a bit to my fear of going out and doing things. Knowing I would be forced to work is terrifying because it would necessitate so many more misunderstandings.
  - nicodjimenez 8y ago
    Just don't drink and drive, don't hang out with volatile people, respect police offers, and you'll be ok. It also helps to be white / be female when dealing with law enforcement but not everyone has such luxuries. Living in fear is no way to live! Think of it this way: if cops weren't around things would be MUCH less safe, so thank god we have them
- bbarn 8y ago
  It may not be "hard labor" but isn't this what getting sentenced to community service is, in effect? Involuntary labor as a punishment for a crime.
  - vanattab 8y ago
    I don't think you can really be forced into community service per se. They basically say the sentence is x time in jail or if you agree we will accept x hours of community service.
  - ethansinjin 8y ago
    As far as I’m aware, community labor is generally sentenced as an alternative to prison time.
troupe 8y ago
> It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Do you think it is reasonable for people in prison to work to offset some of the cost of their room and board or do you think it should all be paid for by taxpayers? (I have a problem with creating an economic incentive to keep people in prison, but less of a problem with giving people something to do that helps pay for their food.)
- TaylorAlexander 8y ago
  I do not believe anyone should be compelled to work against their will. If we want to lock them up, we pay for it.
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    If a non-incarcerated person finds it necessary to work in order to pay for their food and housing, are they being forced to work against their will?
    - nrb 8y ago
      A non-incarcerated person has agency. They have a choice of what work to do, where that work takes place, when to work, the ability to negotiate wages, etc.
      - pmiller2 8y ago
        Not being independently wealthy, I don’t have a choice to work or not. In that sense, if I wanted not to work, then, yes, I would be working against my will. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery Edit: I should clarify, I have the choice not to work and be homeless, but that’s such a deplorable choice, it doesn’t constitute a real, free choice.
        nrb 8y ago
        Sure you do have a choice; you can go live in the wilderness and live entirely self-sufficiently. Just because a choice is unreasonable to you doesn't make it less of a choice. More importantly (and my entire point) is that you have a choice of exactly what kind of work you want to do. That self-determination differentiates you from a prisoner or slave.
kiliantics 8y ago
reminds me of the MLK quote: "One has not only a legal, but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
Is it immoral by default, or due to implementation? For example, consider a prison which forces (which I'll define as however the prisons currently gets inmates to work the jobs) it's inmates to attend classes to learn job skills and avoid behaviors that landed them in prison. Would this not also be a form of slavery given they are forced to attend? Slavery isn't defined by the slave doing something useful to the owner. A slave is still a slave even if they are doing nothing or if they are being commanded to improve themselves. And in this case I wouldn't see it as immoral. What about if the slaves are equally forced to clean up the class once done (think stereotypical Japanese school where the kids do much of the cleaning). This could potentially be saving money for the prison by reducing the number of janitors needed, but I don't see it as any more immoral that I see the kids cleaning the classroom as a form of child labor. In a general sense, imprisoning is a subset of enslavement, though one we generally see as just as long as the laws and legal system which lead to imprisonment is seen as just. In the US in particular, we see some cases as just and some cases as unjust.
- alpha_squared 8y ago
  > For example, consider a prison which forces ... it's [sic] inmates to attend classes to learn job skills and avoid behaviors that landed them in prison. Would this not also be a form of slavery given they are forced to attend? Slavery isn't defined by the slave doing something useful to the owner. A slave is still a slave even if they are doing nothing or if they are being commanded to improve themselves. And in this case I wouldn't see it as immoral. This raised all sorts of alarms in my head, so I decided to look up a more formal definition. In this case, the source is Wikipedia[0]: > Slavery is any system in which principles of property law are applied to people, allowing individuals to own, buy and sell other individuals, as a de jure form of property. A slave is unable to withdraw unilaterally from such an arrangement and works without remuneration. Many scholars now use the term chattel slavery to refer to this specific sense of legalised, de jure slavery. In a broader sense, however, the word slavery may also refer to any situation in which an individual is de facto forced to work against their own will. Your redefinition of slavery is significantly broader than the accepted definition of it. This is extremely problematic in trying to talk about whether or not it's immoral.
marzell 8y ago
Actually, this is not correct, if I am reading that right. In this case, the "punishment for a crime" is the prison sentence. Adding additional provisions to that, which were not part of sentencing at the time, I would argue is extraneous. Involuntary servitude is not part of the definition of a prison sentence.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  Involuntary servitude is part of the legally-defined condition of imprisonment, and is consequently part of a sentence to prison as much as “confinement to a cell” and “being subjected to a prison dress code” and “being subject to prison lockdown procedures”. The individual elements that are associated with prison aren't enumerated in the sentence, but they are not separated from it and therefore illegal as not specifically included in the sentence.

AcerbicZero 8y ago

The only time I heard anyone being sentenced to "hard labor" was in the military, so it seems like if you're given incarceration at your sentencing then that shouldn't automatically mean you're being sentenced to work while you're there? The punishment is incarceration, not labor, right? I guess this is an area where I'm exceptionally under-educated, so if you've got any good suggestions for reading on the topic I'd appreciate it.

rascul 8y ago
See Louisiana for an example. http://www.lafayetteowilawyer.com/helpfulvideos/beingsentencedtohardlaborinlouisiana/ http://www.lafayetteowilawyer.com/helpfulvideos/beingsentenc...
pythonslayer 8y ago
It makes sense to me. As a person with Autism, I have always been scared of a misunderstanding with a police officer that would land me in jail, which is a common issue. I would calm my nerves by telling myself “it will be OK. I will think of it as a lot of time to read.” I later learned books are very hard to come by at prisons, which adds a bit to my fear of going out and doing things. Knowing I would be forced to work is terrifying because it would necessitate so many more misunderstandings.
- nicodjimenez 8y ago
  Just don't drink and drive, don't hang out with volatile people, respect police offers, and you'll be ok. It also helps to be white / be female when dealing with law enforcement but not everyone has such luxuries. Living in fear is no way to live! Think of it this way: if cops weren't around things would be MUCH less safe, so thank god we have them
bbarn 8y ago
It may not be "hard labor" but isn't this what getting sentenced to community service is, in effect? Involuntary labor as a punishment for a crime.
- vanattab 8y ago
  I don't think you can really be forced into community service per se. They basically say the sentence is x time in jail or if you agree we will accept x hours of community service.
- ethansinjin 8y ago
  As far as I’m aware, community labor is generally sentenced as an alternative to prison time.

troupe 8y ago

> It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Do you think it is reasonable for people in prison to work to offset some of the cost of their room and board or do you think it should all be paid for by taxpayers? (I have a problem with creating an economic incentive to keep people in prison, but less of a problem with giving people something to do that helps pay for their food.)

TaylorAlexander 8y ago
I do not believe anyone should be compelled to work against their will. If we want to lock them up, we pay for it.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  If a non-incarcerated person finds it necessary to work in order to pay for their food and housing, are they being forced to work against their will?
  - nrb 8y ago
    A non-incarcerated person has agency. They have a choice of what work to do, where that work takes place, when to work, the ability to negotiate wages, etc.
    - pmiller2 8y ago
      Not being independently wealthy, I don’t have a choice to work or not. In that sense, if I wanted not to work, then, yes, I would be working against my will. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery Edit: I should clarify, I have the choice not to work and be homeless, but that’s such a deplorable choice, it doesn’t constitute a real, free choice.
      - nrb 8y ago
        Sure you do have a choice; you can go live in the wilderness and live entirely self-sufficiently. Just because a choice is unreasonable to you doesn't make it less of a choice. More importantly (and my entire point) is that you have a choice of exactly what kind of work you want to do. That self-determination differentiates you from a prisoner or slave.

kiliantics 8y ago

reminds me of the MLK quote: "One has not only a legal, but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."

PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago

Is it immoral by default, or due to implementation? For example, consider a prison which forces (which I'll define as however the prisons currently gets inmates to work the jobs) it's inmates to attend classes to learn job skills and avoid behaviors that landed them in prison. Would this not also be a form of slavery given they are forced to attend? Slavery isn't defined by the slave doing something useful to the owner. A slave is still a slave even if they are doing nothing or if they are being commanded to improve themselves. And in this case I wouldn't see it as immoral. What about if the slaves are equally forced to clean up the class once done (think stereotypical Japanese school where the kids do much of the cleaning). This could potentially be saving money for the prison by reducing the number of janitors needed, but I don't see it as any more immoral that I see the kids cleaning the classroom as a form of child labor. In a general sense, imprisoning is a subset of enslavement, though one we generally see as just as long as the laws and legal system which lead to imprisonment is seen as just. In the US in particular, we see some cases as just and some cases as unjust.

alpha_squared 8y ago
> For example, consider a prison which forces ... it's [sic] inmates to attend classes to learn job skills and avoid behaviors that landed them in prison. Would this not also be a form of slavery given they are forced to attend? Slavery isn't defined by the slave doing something useful to the owner. A slave is still a slave even if they are doing nothing or if they are being commanded to improve themselves. And in this case I wouldn't see it as immoral. This raised all sorts of alarms in my head, so I decided to look up a more formal definition. In this case, the source is Wikipedia[0]: > Slavery is any system in which principles of property law are applied to people, allowing individuals to own, buy and sell other individuals, as a de jure form of property. A slave is unable to withdraw unilaterally from such an arrangement and works without remuneration. Many scholars now use the term chattel slavery to refer to this specific sense of legalised, de jure slavery. In a broader sense, however, the word slavery may also refer to any situation in which an individual is de facto forced to work against their own will. Your redefinition of slavery is significantly broader than the accepted definition of it. This is extremely problematic in trying to talk about whether or not it's immoral.

marzell 8y ago

Actually, this is not correct, if I am reading that right. In this case, the "punishment for a crime" is the prison sentence. Adding additional provisions to that, which were not part of sentencing at the time, I would argue is extraneous. Involuntary servitude is not part of the definition of a prison sentence.

dragonwriter 8y ago
Involuntary servitude is part of the legally-defined condition of imprisonment, and is consequently part of a sentence to prison as much as “confinement to a cell” and “being subjected to a prison dress code” and “being subject to prison lockdown procedures”. The individual elements that are associated with prison aren't enumerated in the sentence, but they are not separated from it and therefore illegal as not specifically included in the sentence.