22 ms·

National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

573 points by eplanit 8y ago

jancsika 8y ago
> 1. Immediate improvements to the conditions of prisons and prison policies that recognize the humanity of imprisoned men and women. This probably ought to include something like the following: "...including an immediate ban on solitary confinement as a disciplinary measure." Otherwise we will have a multi-decade "conversation" about whether "time in the hole" actually constitutes torture. Remember, this is the country that brought you "enhanced interrogation techniques" and marijuana as a schedule I controlled substance.
Animats 8y ago
Yes. I went to the Design2Part show in Santa Clara a few months ago. The California Department of Corrections had a booth there, offering slave labor as a service.
- prolikewh0a 8y ago
  It's technically not illegal under the 13th amendment. > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Not saying I agree with that part of the 13th amendment, I abhor it personally.
  - AcerbicZero 8y ago
    The only time I heard anyone being sentenced to "hard labor" was in the military, so it seems like if you're given incarceration at your sentencing then that shouldn't automatically mean you're being sentenced to work while you're there? The punishment is incarceration, not labor, right? I guess this is an area where I'm exceptionally under-educated, so if you've got any good suggestions for reading on the topic I'd appreciate it.
    - rascul 8y ago
      See Louisiana for an example. http://www.lafayetteowilawyer.com/helpfulvideos/beingsentencedtohardlaborinlouisiana/ http://www.lafayetteowilawyer.com/helpfulvideos/beingsentenc...
    - pythonslayer 8y ago
      It makes sense to me. As a person with Autism, I have always been scared of a misunderstanding with a police officer that would land me in jail, which is a common issue. I would calm my nerves by telling myself “it will be OK. I will think of it as a lot of time to read.” I later learned books are very hard to come by at prisons, which adds a bit to my fear of going out and doing things. Knowing I would be forced to work is terrifying because it would necessitate so many more misunderstandings.
      - nicodjimenez 8y ago
        Just don't drink and drive, don't hang out with volatile people, respect police offers, and you'll be ok. It also helps to be white / be female when dealing with law enforcement but not everyone has such luxuries. Living in fear is no way to live! Think of it this way: if cops weren't around things would be MUCH less safe, so thank god we have them
    - bbarn 8y ago
      It may not be "hard labor" but isn't this what getting sentenced to community service is, in effect? Involuntary labor as a punishment for a crime.
      - vanattab 8y ago
        I don't think you can really be forced into community service per se. They basically say the sentence is x time in jail or if you agree we will accept x hours of community service.
      - ethansinjin 8y ago
        As far as I’m aware, community labor is generally sentenced as an alternative to prison time.
  - troupe 8y ago
    > It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Do you think it is reasonable for people in prison to work to offset some of the cost of their room and board or do you think it should all be paid for by taxpayers? (I have a problem with creating an economic incentive to keep people in prison, but less of a problem with giving people something to do that helps pay for their food.)
    - TaylorAlexander 8y ago
      I do not believe anyone should be compelled to work against their will. If we want to lock them up, we pay for it.
      - whatshisface 8y ago
        If a non-incarcerated person finds it necessary to work in order to pay for their food and housing, are they being forced to work against their will?
        nrb 8y ago
        A non-incarcerated person has agency. They have a choice of what work to do, where that work takes place, when to work, the ability to negotiate wages, etc.
        pmiller2 8y ago
        Not being independently wealthy, I don’t have a choice to work or not. In that sense, if I wanted not to work, then, yes, I would be working against my will. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery Edit: I should clarify, I have the choice not to work and be homeless, but that’s such a deplorable choice, it doesn’t constitute a real, free choice.
        nrb 8y ago
        Sure you do have a choice; you can go live in the wilderness and live entirely self-sufficiently. Just because a choice is unreasonable to you doesn't make it less of a choice. More importantly (and my entire point) is that you have a choice of exactly what kind of work you want to do. That self-determination differentiates you from a prisoner or slave.
  - kiliantics 8y ago
    reminds me of the MLK quote: "One has not only a legal, but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
  - PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
    Is it immoral by default, or due to implementation? For example, consider a prison which forces (which I'll define as however the prisons currently gets inmates to work the jobs) it's inmates to attend classes to learn job skills and avoid behaviors that landed them in prison. Would this not also be a form of slavery given they are forced to attend? Slavery isn't defined by the slave doing something useful to the owner. A slave is still a slave even if they are doing nothing or if they are being commanded to improve themselves. And in this case I wouldn't see it as immoral. What about if the slaves are equally forced to clean up the class once done (think stereotypical Japanese school where the kids do much of the cleaning). This could potentially be saving money for the prison by reducing the number of janitors needed, but I don't see it as any more immoral that I see the kids cleaning the classroom as a form of child labor. In a general sense, imprisoning is a subset of enslavement, though one we generally see as just as long as the laws and legal system which lead to imprisonment is seen as just. In the US in particular, we see some cases as just and some cases as unjust.
    - alpha_squared 8y ago
      > For example, consider a prison which forces ... it's [sic] inmates to attend classes to learn job skills and avoid behaviors that landed them in prison. Would this not also be a form of slavery given they are forced to attend? Slavery isn't defined by the slave doing something useful to the owner. A slave is still a slave even if they are doing nothing or if they are being commanded to improve themselves. And in this case I wouldn't see it as immoral. This raised all sorts of alarms in my head, so I decided to look up a more formal definition. In this case, the source is Wikipedia[0]: > Slavery is any system in which principles of property law are applied to people, allowing individuals to own, buy and sell other individuals, as a de jure form of property. A slave is unable to withdraw unilaterally from such an arrangement and works without remuneration. Many scholars now use the term chattel slavery to refer to this specific sense of legalised, de jure slavery. In a broader sense, however, the word slavery may also refer to any situation in which an individual is de facto forced to work against their own will. Your redefinition of slavery is significantly broader than the accepted definition of it. This is extremely problematic in trying to talk about whether or not it's immoral.
  - marzell 8y ago
    Actually, this is not correct, if I am reading that right. In this case, the "punishment for a crime" is the prison sentence. Adding additional provisions to that, which were not part of sentencing at the time, I would argue is extraneous. Involuntary servitude is not part of the definition of a prison sentence.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      Involuntary servitude is part of the legally-defined condition of imprisonment, and is consequently part of a sentence to prison as much as “confinement to a cell” and “being subjected to a prison dress code” and “being subject to prison lockdown procedures”. The individual elements that are associated with prison aren't enumerated in the sentence, but they are not separated from it and therefore illegal as not specifically included in the sentence.
- DubiousPusher 8y ago
  Unfortunately, the 13th amendment allows it...
  - chimeracoder 8y ago
    > Unfortunately, the 13th amendment allows it... The 13th Amendment doesn't prohibit it, the way it prohibits (most forms of) chattel slavery. But there's nothing preventing Congress (or state legislatures) from passing laws prohibiting it.
    - DubiousPusher 8y ago
      That would be lovely. I hope that happens.
    - jaccarmac 8y ago
      IANAL but the wording seems pretty straightforward. I feel relatively confident that laws outlawing prison slavery would be challenged by for-profit prisons instantly and easily be declared unconstitutional.
      - chimeracoder 8y ago
        > IANAL but the wording seems pretty straightforward. I feel relatively confident that laws outlawing prison slavery would be challenged by for-profit prisons instantly and easily be declared unconstitutional. It'd be pretty hard to extract from the 13th amendment a constitutional right to put prisoners to unpaid work. Furthermore, it's a myth that only for-profit prisons that profit from it - state-owned prisons also profit off the system to the same extent.
        jaccarmac 8y ago
        > It'd be pretty hard to extract from the 13th amendment a constitutional right to put prisoners to unpaid work. Fair, I had forgotten the "except... shall exist wording" > state-owned prisons also profit off the system to the same extent Also fair, but I'd expect the private prisons to be the ones to sue states.
TaylorAlexander 8y ago
A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds of thousands of prisoners are also employed in jobs outside and inside the prisons, most commonly doing work to maintain the prisons. According to the Prison Policy Initiative, the average prison worker makes around 85 cents an hour. In 2017, inmates in Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, and Texas were not paid for most of their work. Proponents of these low-paying jobs have argued that inmates benefit from the work experience and that prisons, which are already often cash-strapped, cannot afford to pay more; opponents have argued that prisoners do need real wages to be able to buy basic necessities other than food in the prisons.” Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not.
- dominotw 8y ago
  > Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. CA has to release thousands of prisons soon due to funding issues.
  - r00fus 8y ago
    The biggest crime is if they come back into society without the ability to add to the workforce (due to their being former prisoners) or resources to exercise their entrepreneurship (ie, no connections or learning). Then they are targets for recidivism and society loses out. Otherwise, I'm perfectly fine with less prisons.
    - Hydraulix989 8y ago
      The biggest problem then is the stigma of having a criminal record for future job interviews' background checks. Ordinary possession shouldn't leave a lasting black mark on one's record or there will definitely be recidivism barring any cultural change in attitude towards hiring ex-criminals.
secult 8y ago
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- dublinben 8y ago
  https://outline.com/fCXvYT https://outline.com/fCXvYT
makecheck 8y ago
I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, and I’m amazed at how much people protest things like Netflix price increases when we have way worse problems that warrant our time and money.
- zaroth 8y ago
  I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners. Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely. But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of inmates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?
  - crooked-v 8y ago
    > I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners. Why?
  - lovich 8y ago
    Why should prisoners not get minimum wage when everyone else does? How is forcing people to work for less than is levally allowed, in dangerous conditions as well, any different from slavery?
    - emodendroket 8y ago
      The Constitution explicitly permits slavery as a punishment for crime, to be fair.
      - c0nducktr 8y ago
        Something being the law doesn't make it justifiable.
kevmo 8y ago
"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." - 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution Whenever anyone says slavery no longer exists in America, I point them to this. The foundational document of our system of government expressly allows slavery. We house 25% of the world's prisoners in part because it's how we are still legally producing slaves.
- noobermin 8y ago
  Can any lawyer comment? A reading of the 13th amendment seems to justify involuntary servitude as a punishment for a crime, does this mean prison labor that isn't included in a sentence a violation of the 13th amendment? Just reading of this seems to allow one to make an legal argument along those lines, so I imagine there must have been some case that lead to a clarification of the 13th in the intervening century or so.
  - kevmo 8y ago
    I have a law degree and used to work for a federal judge (am a developer now, though). The 13th Amendment says that you can enslave someone as part of their post-conviction sentencing. This is very broad language and allows for the general slavery of anyone who has been convicted of a crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat...
  - TheSoftwareGuy 8y ago
    Except there is over a century of precedent, and no court is going to overturn that now. The 13th amendment is not some new discovery that the courts are waiting for someone to make an argument based on
    - RIMR 8y ago
      You couldn't be more wrong. The supreme court could reinterpret this, and require forced labor to be a part of the sentence, not just allowed to be used against anyone in prison. Precedent changes over time. This idea that the current interpretation of the Constitution is immutable is defeatist and foolish.
throwaway0x7647 8y ago
My brother just went to jail and I’m just learning how crazy some things are there. They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up). No one can properly function after repeated nights of less than 4 hours of sleep. I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits.
- omegaworks 8y ago
  >I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits. Bingo. Private prisons have no incentive to reduce recidivism.
  - wu-ikkyu 8y ago
    Why is this being downvoted? Jon Oliver did a bit a while back on private prisons. The investigation uncovered an investor sales pitch which bragged of "high recidivism rates"
    - maxerickson 8y ago
      Probably because it's unlikely the other poster is talking about a private prison. "Jail" often means a county operated facility and then at the state and federal level most prisoners are still held in publicly administered facilities.
    - cristoperb 8y ago
      The Jon Oliver episode on prison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pz3syET3DY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pz3syET3DY See also Shane Bauer's undercover report "My Four Months as a Private Prison Guard": https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/cca-private-prisons-corrections-corporation-inmates-investigation-bauer/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/cca-private-pri...
- reaperducer 8y ago
  They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up). It's one of several measures to keep the inmates docile. See also: feeding them low-quality food, and only enough for survival. A hungry, sleep-deprived prisoner isn't going to revolt, and after release may think twice about going back.
chuckgreenman 8y ago
On the one hand, you don't really want there to be much of an economy in prison. The more money inmates make the more they have to bribe corrections workers and create an unsafe environment. On the other hand, we can't keep wages so low in these institutions that basic hygiene items require a hours on hours of work. How do you expect someone to go from incarcerated to living in the world with no money? I swear we just love to create problems in this country and then wonder out loud how those problems came to be.
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago
  There are definitely ways to restrict what folks spend on and who they send money to. One of the easiest ways would be to set up a normal, non-interest earnings savings account with no cash on site. For personal use items, simply require they all come from the prison roster of stuff, and have a selection. Allow folks to send to limited family members: Parents, spouses, and domestic partners would get it if they lived together and had help from the person before the crime. Underage children could get it automatically (and probably should get it if the person had parental rights or child support to pay). Again, there would be no cash and reasonable limits on things from the commissary. Everything else can be saved so that folks have a good start when they get out. As far as bribing corrections officers: I'd honestly say part of the answer to this would be to train folks well (more than 2 months of training), pay them well enough to get good candidates, and make sure to keep the prison's well-staffed without relying on overtime. This is a hurdle, though, as most of the places will say they can't afford it.
- SahAssar 8y ago
  If you keep people in a prison you are also obligated to feed them and keep them supplied with basic necessities like basic hygiene items. Nobody in prison should need to work to wash themselves or brush their teeth.
- siruncledrew 8y ago
  Adding income equality to prison would make the problems way worse. Basic hygiene stuff should just be provided by the prison (probably something a contract company like Aramark could easily and cheaply provide). I suppose the main returns of value to a prisoner are time or money. It seems fair to offer a choice of getting a reduced sentence vs. getting paid (probably max. minimum wage). Making someone in prison understand choices and consequences of choices seems like a key thing to understand while there. It's like living with a concrete bench - you'll survive, but you won't enjoy it. Of course, this stuff might only apply to a certain group of prisoners.
eli_gottlieb 8y ago
Ok, everyone sing along! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBpUniD7VGE&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBpUniD7VGE&feature=youtu.be Solidarity over slavery!
BucketSort 8y ago
I'm very impressed that we don't actually bill prisoners for rent, food, etc and if they can't pay, loan them money through a high interest loan that they can never pay off. Maybe they could do this and reduce interest on the loan if you work in prison. Whatever story works to keep people blind to the fact that the state abuses the shit out of its people.
- kevmo 8y ago
  We do. https://money.cnn.com/2015/09/18/news/economy/prison-fees-inmates-debt/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2015/09/18/news/economy/prison-fees-in...
  - BucketSort 8y ago
    Excellent. This is exactly what I would do if I was trying to take away people's freedom. It's so wonderful to live in a country that is so brilliant at enslaving its people. USA!
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
andrewla 8y ago
For reference, here is the linked list of demands by the national organizers [1]: > 1. Immediate improvements to the conditions of prisons and prison policies that recognize the humanity of imprisoned men and women. > 2. An immediate end to prison slavery. All persons imprisoned in any place of detention under United States jurisdiction must be paid the prevailing wage in their state or territory for their labor. > 3. The Prison Litigation Reform Act must be rescinded, allowing imprisoned humans a proper channel to address grievances and violations of their rights. > 4. The Truth in Sentencing Act and the Sentencing Reform Act must be rescinded so that imprisoned humans have a possibility of rehabilitation and parole. No human shall be sentenced to Death by Incarceration or serve any sentence without the possibility of parole. > 5. An immediate end to the racial overcharging, over-sentencing, and parole denials of Black and brown humans. Black humans shall no longer be denied parole because the victim of the crime was white, which is a particular problem in southern states. > 6. An immediate end to racist gang enhancement laws targeting Black and brown humans. > 7. No imprisoned human shall be denied access to rehabilitation programs at their place of detention because of their label as a violent offender. > 8. State prisons must be funded specifically to offer more rehabilitation services. > 9. Pell grants must be reinstated in all US states and territories. > 10. The voting rights of all confined citizens serving prison sentences, pretrial detainees, and so-called “ex-felons” must be counted. Representation is demanded. All voices count! [1] https://www.dropbox.com/s/r5cr546jlscgkhj/Prison%20Strike.pdf?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/r5cr546jlscgkhj/Prison%20Strike.pd...
- fraudsyndrome 8y ago
  As someone from Australia who doesn't understand the prison thing in the US. Is it essentially modern slavery? They choose non-white demographics, send them to prison for minor offences, and use the for cheap/free labour. Is this right?
  - ObsoleteNerd 8y ago
    Yes. Pretty much exactly that.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
drivingmenuts 8y ago
If they’re not being paid and the work they’re doing is not helping them to get a job afterwards, then they have every right to protest. In theory at least, they are supposed to be working towards rehabilitation, but it’s turning out to be slave labor in practice.
conner_bw 8y ago
Attica, Cinda Firestone, 1973 https://vimeo.com/272464205 https://vimeo.com/272464205
appleflaxen 8y ago
this is modern slavery. the minimum wage should apply to all labor, including that performed by inmates.
tryitnow 8y ago
Paying prisoners absurdly low wages teaches them that honest labor doesn't pay. Isn't this exactly the opposite of what we want them to learn? I readily that my emotional side wants to prison to be as punitive as possible. But my rational side just wants to live in a society with less crime. And teaching prisoners that honest labor pays is an important lesson in getting them to behave themselves when they get out.
- Barrin92 8y ago
  >. Isn't this exactly the opposite of what we want them to learn? I don't think anybody who is involved in what can only be described as a prison industry at this point is interested in teaching them anything.
ForrestN 8y ago
As much as I wish for incremental reform of prison conditions for prisoners, it's important never to forget the fundamentally unethical premise of prisons and state punishment, which derives from religious fantasies about good and evil. Human beings behave according to the combination of their neurology and their conditions. We should do what we can to prevent dangerous behavior and do our best to treat the people who do dangerous things. Deciding that some people, mostly people who come from historically oppressed groups and from poverty, are bad and deserve to suffer has a toxic effect on the core of our society.
shevek_ 8y ago
US inmates in 2018 are paid worse than prisoners in Soviet gulags in the 1950s https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Leonid_Borodkin/publication/237588373_Compensation_Versus_Coercion_in_the_Soviet_GULAG/links/0c960528c68e4999f4000000/Compensation-Versus-Coercion-in-the-Soviet-GULAG.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Leonid_Borodkin/publica...
oh_sigh 8y ago
One thing they are demanding is to get rid of the ability to sentence someone to life without parole. For some reason, I don't think the public is going to get behind that one.
kraftman 8y ago
Title should add 'in USA'
- trumped 8y ago
  The default is USA... dang should add a country if it isn't
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scarecrowbob 8y ago
Inside, Outside: all on the same side.
c141charlie 8y ago
I have always felt that not paying prison guards enough would encourage corruption. If you’re a prison guard and are barely scraping buy, would you be tempted to smuggle in drugs for the inmates if that meant lining your wallet with a few hundred bucks? This must happen at some level. How else do people get access to drugs in prison?
jakeinspace 8y ago
A common argument against offering minimum wage work or advanced technical training to prisoners is that this reduces the disincentive of prison time. From a purely logical standpoint I can see how that makes some amount of sense, but in reality I don't think anybody committing petty or significant crimes would be swayed one way or the other over the opportunity for $7/hour in prison. The lack of freedom - to see family, friends, live an actual life - that's the disincentive. Not to mention the employment and housing prospects of a convicted felon, which are terrible.
twothamendment 8y ago
I worked with a guy who was on a state fire crew (not California). The pay was super low, but he didn't care. Being outdoors in the smoke was way better than being in a cell and the time off for being good was worth quite a bit to him. He was totally happy with the arrangement and it sounded like many others were too. The state had lots of similar programs, roofing government buildings, etc. I thought I'd share how he felt because it wasn't all all what I expected to hear. I expected he'd rip on it and all I heard was good.
a-fried-egg 8y ago
I think the inhabitants of the white collar prisons should be put to work fighting the fires and get paid nothing in return. Most of them are serving hard time for fraud anyway.
hackermailman 8y ago
The US prison system will probably be the first way somebody fulfills the one million jobs RFS https://www.ycombinator.com/rfs/#million https://www.ycombinator.com/rfs/#million Find a way to sell a service the prisoners can learn to do through apprenticing with experienced prisoners (b2b sales, data analysis, ect), find a way to get companies to contract your inmates, find a way to proof it from bad inmates making politicians look embarassed by limiting the scope of the service to something they can't use for crime, find a way to get prisoners to agree by paying them the state min wage,find a way to get prison workers and public to agree by making it as non disruptive to set up as possible, hire former inmates who worked for you to manage the on site operations, counter 'this is slavery' criticism by hiring prisoners themselves to be your company PR. Prisoners can pay off their conviction fines and at the same time save money for release to land soft. Pitch this to YC and get funding to conduct some kind of data gathering to guage what politicians and public would be comfortable with (types of offenses permitted to work, industries that are least adversarial to this model so willing to work with your prisoners, ect).
Friedduck 8y ago
Has everyone forgotten that these people are all convicted of a crime and serving their sentences? For all the issues that exist (gouging for common services, violence, the judicial process, etc.) complaining about the terms of their punishment is absurd. To be sure there should be rehabilitation, and a component of that is incentives. There should be no expectation, though, that those incentives should correlate to what they may receive in the free market.

573 points by eplanit 8y ago

> 1. Immediate improvements to the conditions of prisons and prison policies that recognize the humanity of imprisoned men and women. This probably ought to include something like the following: "...including an immediate ban on solitary confinement as a disciplinary measure." Otherwise we will have a multi-decade "conversation" about whether "time in the hole" actually constitutes torture. Remember, this is the country that brought you "enhanced interrogation techniques" and marijuana as a schedule I controlled substance.

Animats 8y ago

Yes. I went to the Design2Part show in Santa Clara a few months ago. The California Department of Corrections had a booth there, offering slave labor as a service.

prolikewh0a 8y ago
It's technically not illegal under the 13th amendment. > Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Not saying I agree with that part of the 13th amendment, I abhor it personally.
- AcerbicZero 8y ago
  The only time I heard anyone being sentenced to "hard labor" was in the military, so it seems like if you're given incarceration at your sentencing then that shouldn't automatically mean you're being sentenced to work while you're there? The punishment is incarceration, not labor, right? I guess this is an area where I'm exceptionally under-educated, so if you've got any good suggestions for reading on the topic I'd appreciate it.
  - rascul 8y ago
    See Louisiana for an example. http://www.lafayetteowilawyer.com/helpfulvideos/beingsentencedtohardlaborinlouisiana/ http://www.lafayetteowilawyer.com/helpfulvideos/beingsentenc...
  - pythonslayer 8y ago
    It makes sense to me. As a person with Autism, I have always been scared of a misunderstanding with a police officer that would land me in jail, which is a common issue. I would calm my nerves by telling myself “it will be OK. I will think of it as a lot of time to read.” I later learned books are very hard to come by at prisons, which adds a bit to my fear of going out and doing things. Knowing I would be forced to work is terrifying because it would necessitate so many more misunderstandings.
    - nicodjimenez 8y ago
      Just don't drink and drive, don't hang out with volatile people, respect police offers, and you'll be ok. It also helps to be white / be female when dealing with law enforcement but not everyone has such luxuries. Living in fear is no way to live! Think of it this way: if cops weren't around things would be MUCH less safe, so thank god we have them
  - bbarn 8y ago
    It may not be "hard labor" but isn't this what getting sentenced to community service is, in effect? Involuntary labor as a punishment for a crime.
    - vanattab 8y ago
      I don't think you can really be forced into community service per se. They basically say the sentence is x time in jail or if you agree we will accept x hours of community service.
    - ethansinjin 8y ago
      As far as I’m aware, community labor is generally sentenced as an alternative to prison time.
- troupe 8y ago
  > It's immoral and unethical, but it's legal. Do you think it is reasonable for people in prison to work to offset some of the cost of their room and board or do you think it should all be paid for by taxpayers? (I have a problem with creating an economic incentive to keep people in prison, but less of a problem with giving people something to do that helps pay for their food.)
  - TaylorAlexander 8y ago
    I do not believe anyone should be compelled to work against their will. If we want to lock them up, we pay for it.
    - whatshisface 8y ago
      If a non-incarcerated person finds it necessary to work in order to pay for their food and housing, are they being forced to work against their will?
      - nrb 8y ago
        A non-incarcerated person has agency. They have a choice of what work to do, where that work takes place, when to work, the ability to negotiate wages, etc.
        pmiller2 8y ago
        Not being independently wealthy, I don’t have a choice to work or not. In that sense, if I wanted not to work, then, yes, I would be working against my will. See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery Edit: I should clarify, I have the choice not to work and be homeless, but that’s such a deplorable choice, it doesn’t constitute a real, free choice.
        nrb 8y ago
        Sure you do have a choice; you can go live in the wilderness and live entirely self-sufficiently. Just because a choice is unreasonable to you doesn't make it less of a choice. More importantly (and my entire point) is that you have a choice of exactly what kind of work you want to do. That self-determination differentiates you from a prisoner or slave.
- kiliantics 8y ago
  reminds me of the MLK quote: "One has not only a legal, but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
- PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
  Is it immoral by default, or due to implementation? For example, consider a prison which forces (which I'll define as however the prisons currently gets inmates to work the jobs) it's inmates to attend classes to learn job skills and avoid behaviors that landed them in prison. Would this not also be a form of slavery given they are forced to attend? Slavery isn't defined by the slave doing something useful to the owner. A slave is still a slave even if they are doing nothing or if they are being commanded to improve themselves. And in this case I wouldn't see it as immoral. What about if the slaves are equally forced to clean up the class once done (think stereotypical Japanese school where the kids do much of the cleaning). This could potentially be saving money for the prison by reducing the number of janitors needed, but I don't see it as any more immoral that I see the kids cleaning the classroom as a form of child labor. In a general sense, imprisoning is a subset of enslavement, though one we generally see as just as long as the laws and legal system which lead to imprisonment is seen as just. In the US in particular, we see some cases as just and some cases as unjust.
  - alpha_squared 8y ago
    > For example, consider a prison which forces ... it's [sic] inmates to attend classes to learn job skills and avoid behaviors that landed them in prison. Would this not also be a form of slavery given they are forced to attend? Slavery isn't defined by the slave doing something useful to the owner. A slave is still a slave even if they are doing nothing or if they are being commanded to improve themselves. And in this case I wouldn't see it as immoral. This raised all sorts of alarms in my head, so I decided to look up a more formal definition. In this case, the source is Wikipedia[0]: > Slavery is any system in which principles of property law are applied to people, allowing individuals to own, buy and sell other individuals, as a de jure form of property. A slave is unable to withdraw unilaterally from such an arrangement and works without remuneration. Many scholars now use the term chattel slavery to refer to this specific sense of legalised, de jure slavery. In a broader sense, however, the word slavery may also refer to any situation in which an individual is de facto forced to work against their own will. Your redefinition of slavery is significantly broader than the accepted definition of it. This is extremely problematic in trying to talk about whether or not it's immoral.
- marzell 8y ago
  Actually, this is not correct, if I am reading that right. In this case, the "punishment for a crime" is the prison sentence. Adding additional provisions to that, which were not part of sentencing at the time, I would argue is extraneous. Involuntary servitude is not part of the definition of a prison sentence.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    Involuntary servitude is part of the legally-defined condition of imprisonment, and is consequently part of a sentence to prison as much as “confinement to a cell” and “being subjected to a prison dress code” and “being subject to prison lockdown procedures”. The individual elements that are associated with prison aren't enumerated in the sentence, but they are not separated from it and therefore illegal as not specifically included in the sentence.
DubiousPusher 8y ago
Unfortunately, the 13th amendment allows it...
- chimeracoder 8y ago
  > Unfortunately, the 13th amendment allows it... The 13th Amendment doesn't prohibit it, the way it prohibits (most forms of) chattel slavery. But there's nothing preventing Congress (or state legislatures) from passing laws prohibiting it.
  - DubiousPusher 8y ago
    That would be lovely. I hope that happens.
  - jaccarmac 8y ago
    IANAL but the wording seems pretty straightforward. I feel relatively confident that laws outlawing prison slavery would be challenged by for-profit prisons instantly and easily be declared unconstitutional.
    - chimeracoder 8y ago
      > IANAL but the wording seems pretty straightforward. I feel relatively confident that laws outlawing prison slavery would be challenged by for-profit prisons instantly and easily be declared unconstitutional. It'd be pretty hard to extract from the 13th amendment a constitutional right to put prisoners to unpaid work. Furthermore, it's a myth that only for-profit prisons that profit from it - state-owned prisons also profit off the system to the same extent.
      - jaccarmac 8y ago
        > It'd be pretty hard to extract from the 13th amendment a constitutional right to put prisoners to unpaid work. Fair, I had forgotten the "except... shall exist wording" > state-owned prisons also profit off the system to the same extent Also fair, but I'd expect the private prisons to be the ones to sue states.

TaylorAlexander 8y ago

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds of thousands of prisoners are also employed in jobs outside and inside the prisons, most commonly doing work to maintain the prisons. According to the Prison Policy Initiative, the average prison worker makes around 85 cents an hour. In 2017, inmates in Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, and Texas were not paid for most of their work. Proponents of these low-paying jobs have argued that inmates benefit from the work experience and that prisons, which are already often cash-strapped, cannot afford to pay more; opponents have argued that prisoners do need real wages to be able to buy basic necessities other than food in the prisons.” Arguing that it’s good for them is paternalistic bullshit. The same argument could justify slavery. If prisons are cash strapped, whose responsibility is that? I believe society put these people away and we should pay for it. Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not.

dominotw 8y ago
> Either it’s worth it to us or it’s not. CA has to release thousands of prisons soon due to funding issues.
- r00fus 8y ago
  The biggest crime is if they come back into society without the ability to add to the workforce (due to their being former prisoners) or resources to exercise their entrepreneurship (ie, no connections or learning). Then they are targets for recidivism and society loses out. Otherwise, I'm perfectly fine with less prisons.
  - Hydraulix989 8y ago
    The biggest problem then is the stigma of having a criminal record for future job interviews' background checks. Ordinary possession shouldn't leave a lasting black mark on one's record or there will definitely be recidivism barring any cultural change in attitude towards hiring ex-criminals.

secult 8y ago

You cannot visit slate unless you accept the privacy policy. Which third partners they share the data with, and how to opt out? You never know, as you have to accept the privacy policy first before accessing the Third Party Partners page.

dublinben 8y ago
https://outline.com/fCXvYT https://outline.com/fCXvYT

makecheck 8y ago

I never understood the idea of paying prisoners absurdly little “because prison”. Why, because they’re not paying rent? And there’s no way they will find a job on Day 1 after release, meaning they essentially have not enough money while in prison, no way to save money, and poverty at release. Given that, they’ll probably be forced to steal to survive after release and...end up back in prison. It’s inhumane garbage, and I’m amazed at how much people protest things like Netflix price increases when we have way worse problems that warrant our time and money.

zaroth 8y ago
I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners. Teaching, training, therapy, yes, please, absolutely. Humane conditions and treatment from the guards most definitely. But minimum wage? I’m not sure. I like the idea of inmates being able to complete their sentence with some funds they’ve saved up to help get back on their feet. But that’s what halfway houses are supposed to support I guess?
- crooked-v 8y ago
  > I’m not sure prisons should offer gainful employment to prisoners. Why?
- lovich 8y ago
  Why should prisoners not get minimum wage when everyone else does? How is forcing people to work for less than is levally allowed, in dangerous conditions as well, any different from slavery?
  - emodendroket 8y ago
    The Constitution explicitly permits slavery as a punishment for crime, to be fair.
    - c0nducktr 8y ago
      Something being the law doesn't make it justifiable.

kevmo 8y ago

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." - 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution Whenever anyone says slavery no longer exists in America, I point them to this. The foundational document of our system of government expressly allows slavery. We house 25% of the world's prisoners in part because it's how we are still legally producing slaves.

noobermin 8y ago
Can any lawyer comment? A reading of the 13th amendment seems to justify involuntary servitude as a punishment for a crime, does this mean prison labor that isn't included in a sentence a violation of the 13th amendment? Just reading of this seems to allow one to make an legal argument along those lines, so I imagine there must have been some case that lead to a clarification of the 13th in the intervening century or so.
- kevmo 8y ago
  I have a law degree and used to work for a federal judge (am a developer now, though). The 13th Amendment says that you can enslave someone as part of their post-conviction sentencing. This is very broad language and allows for the general slavery of anyone who has been convicted of a crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_labor_in_the_United_Stat...
- TheSoftwareGuy 8y ago
  Except there is over a century of precedent, and no court is going to overturn that now. The 13th amendment is not some new discovery that the courts are waiting for someone to make an argument based on
  - RIMR 8y ago
    You couldn't be more wrong. The supreme court could reinterpret this, and require forced labor to be a part of the sentence, not just allowed to be used against anyone in prison. Precedent changes over time. This idea that the current interpretation of the Constitution is immutable is defeatist and foolish.

throwaway0x7647 8y ago

My brother just went to jail and I’m just learning how crazy some things are there. They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up). No one can properly function after repeated nights of less than 4 hours of sleep. I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits.

omegaworks 8y ago
>I seriously think the jail just wants to push people to misbehave so they stay there longer and the jail can reap more profits. Bingo. Private prisons have no incentive to reduce recidivism.
- wu-ikkyu 8y ago
  Why is this being downvoted? Jon Oliver did a bit a while back on private prisons. The investigation uncovered an investor sales pitch which bragged of "high recidivism rates"
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    Probably because it's unlikely the other poster is talking about a private prison. "Jail" often means a county operated facility and then at the state and federal level most prisoners are still held in publicly administered facilities.
  - cristoperb 8y ago
    The Jon Oliver episode on prison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pz3syET3DY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pz3syET3DY See also Shane Bauer's undercover report "My Four Months as a Private Prison Guard": https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/cca-private-prisons-corrections-corporation-inmates-investigation-bauer/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/cca-private-pri...
reaperducer 8y ago
They keep the bright lights on until midnight, and turn them back on at 4am (and require the inmates to get up). It's one of several measures to keep the inmates docile. See also: feeding them low-quality food, and only enough for survival. A hungry, sleep-deprived prisoner isn't going to revolt, and after release may think twice about going back.

chuckgreenman 8y ago

On the one hand, you don't really want there to be much of an economy in prison. The more money inmates make the more they have to bribe corrections workers and create an unsafe environment. On the other hand, we can't keep wages so low in these institutions that basic hygiene items require a hours on hours of work. How do you expect someone to go from incarcerated to living in the world with no money? I swear we just love to create problems in this country and then wonder out loud how those problems came to be.

Broken_Hippo 8y ago
There are definitely ways to restrict what folks spend on and who they send money to. One of the easiest ways would be to set up a normal, non-interest earnings savings account with no cash on site. For personal use items, simply require they all come from the prison roster of stuff, and have a selection. Allow folks to send to limited family members: Parents, spouses, and domestic partners would get it if they lived together and had help from the person before the crime. Underage children could get it automatically (and probably should get it if the person had parental rights or child support to pay). Again, there would be no cash and reasonable limits on things from the commissary. Everything else can be saved so that folks have a good start when they get out. As far as bribing corrections officers: I'd honestly say part of the answer to this would be to train folks well (more than 2 months of training), pay them well enough to get good candidates, and make sure to keep the prison's well-staffed without relying on overtime. This is a hurdle, though, as most of the places will say they can't afford it.
SahAssar 8y ago
If you keep people in a prison you are also obligated to feed them and keep them supplied with basic necessities like basic hygiene items. Nobody in prison should need to work to wash themselves or brush their teeth.
siruncledrew 8y ago
Adding income equality to prison would make the problems way worse. Basic hygiene stuff should just be provided by the prison (probably something a contract company like Aramark could easily and cheaply provide). I suppose the main returns of value to a prisoner are time or money. It seems fair to offer a choice of getting a reduced sentence vs. getting paid (probably max. minimum wage). Making someone in prison understand choices and consequences of choices seems like a key thing to understand while there. It's like living with a concrete bench - you'll survive, but you won't enjoy it. Of course, this stuff might only apply to a certain group of prisoners.

eli_gottlieb 8y ago

Ok, everyone sing along! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBpUniD7VGE&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBpUniD7VGE&feature=youtu.be Solidarity over slavery!

BucketSort 8y ago

I'm very impressed that we don't actually bill prisoners for rent, food, etc and if they can't pay, loan them money through a high interest loan that they can never pay off. Maybe they could do this and reduce interest on the loan if you work in prison. Whatever story works to keep people blind to the fact that the state abuses the shit out of its people.

kevmo 8y ago
We do. https://money.cnn.com/2015/09/18/news/economy/prison-fees-inmates-debt/index.html https://money.cnn.com/2015/09/18/news/economy/prison-fees-in...
- BucketSort 8y ago
  Excellent. This is exactly what I would do if I was trying to take away people's freedom. It's so wonderful to live in a country that is so brilliant at enslaving its people. USA!
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

andrewla 8y ago

For reference, here is the linked list of demands by the national organizers [1]: > 1. Immediate improvements to the conditions of prisons and prison policies that recognize the humanity of imprisoned men and women. > 2. An immediate end to prison slavery. All persons imprisoned in any place of detention under United States jurisdiction must be paid the prevailing wage in their state or territory for their labor. > 3. The Prison Litigation Reform Act must be rescinded, allowing imprisoned humans a proper channel to address grievances and violations of their rights. > 4. The Truth in Sentencing Act and the Sentencing Reform Act must be rescinded so that imprisoned humans have a possibility of rehabilitation and parole. No human shall be sentenced to Death by Incarceration or serve any sentence without the possibility of parole. > 5. An immediate end to the racial overcharging, over-sentencing, and parole denials of Black and brown humans. Black humans shall no longer be denied parole because the victim of the crime was white, which is a particular problem in southern states. > 6. An immediate end to racist gang enhancement laws targeting Black and brown humans. > 7. No imprisoned human shall be denied access to rehabilitation programs at their place of detention because of their label as a violent offender. > 8. State prisons must be funded specifically to offer more rehabilitation services. > 9. Pell grants must be reinstated in all US states and territories. > 10. The voting rights of all confined citizens serving prison sentences, pretrial detainees, and so-called “ex-felons” must be counted. Representation is demanded. All voices count! [1] https://www.dropbox.com/s/r5cr546jlscgkhj/Prison%20Strike.pdf?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/r5cr546jlscgkhj/Prison%20Strike.pd...

fraudsyndrome 8y ago
As someone from Australia who doesn't understand the prison thing in the US. Is it essentially modern slavery? They choose non-white demographics, send them to prison for minor offences, and use the for cheap/free labour. Is this right?
- ObsoleteNerd 8y ago
  Yes. Pretty much exactly that.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

drivingmenuts 8y ago

If they’re not being paid and the work they’re doing is not helping them to get a job afterwards, then they have every right to protest. In theory at least, they are supposed to be working towards rehabilitation, but it’s turning out to be slave labor in practice.

conner_bw 8y ago

Attica, Cinda Firestone, 1973 https://vimeo.com/272464205 https://vimeo.com/272464205

appleflaxen 8y ago

this is modern slavery. the minimum wage should apply to all labor, including that performed by inmates.

tryitnow 8y ago

Paying prisoners absurdly low wages teaches them that honest labor doesn't pay. Isn't this exactly the opposite of what we want them to learn? I readily that my emotional side wants to prison to be as punitive as possible. But my rational side just wants to live in a society with less crime. And teaching prisoners that honest labor pays is an important lesson in getting them to behave themselves when they get out.

Barrin92 8y ago
>. Isn't this exactly the opposite of what we want them to learn? I don't think anybody who is involved in what can only be described as a prison industry at this point is interested in teaching them anything.

ForrestN 8y ago

As much as I wish for incremental reform of prison conditions for prisoners, it's important never to forget the fundamentally unethical premise of prisons and state punishment, which derives from religious fantasies about good and evil. Human beings behave according to the combination of their neurology and their conditions. We should do what we can to prevent dangerous behavior and do our best to treat the people who do dangerous things. Deciding that some people, mostly people who come from historically oppressed groups and from poverty, are bad and deserve to suffer has a toxic effect on the core of our society.

shevek_ 8y ago

US inmates in 2018 are paid worse than prisoners in Soviet gulags in the 1950s https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Leonid_Borodkin/publication/237588373_Compensation_Versus_Coercion_in_the_Soviet_GULAG/links/0c960528c68e4999f4000000/Compensation-Versus-Coercion-in-the-Soviet-GULAG.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Leonid_Borodkin/publica...

oh_sigh 8y ago

One thing they are demanding is to get rid of the ability to sentence someone to life without parole. For some reason, I don't think the public is going to get behind that one.

kraftman 8y ago

Title should add 'in USA'

trumped 8y ago
The default is USA... dang should add a country if it isn't

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scarecrowbob 8y ago

Inside, Outside: all on the same side.

c141charlie 8y ago

I have always felt that not paying prison guards enough would encourage corruption. If you’re a prison guard and are barely scraping buy, would you be tempted to smuggle in drugs for the inmates if that meant lining your wallet with a few hundred bucks? This must happen at some level. How else do people get access to drugs in prison?

jakeinspace 8y ago

A common argument against offering minimum wage work or advanced technical training to prisoners is that this reduces the disincentive of prison time. From a purely logical standpoint I can see how that makes some amount of sense, but in reality I don't think anybody committing petty or significant crimes would be swayed one way or the other over the opportunity for $7/hour in prison. The lack of freedom - to see family, friends, live an actual life - that's the disincentive. Not to mention the employment and housing prospects of a convicted felon, which are terrible.

twothamendment 8y ago

I worked with a guy who was on a state fire crew (not California). The pay was super low, but he didn't care. Being outdoors in the smoke was way better than being in a cell and the time off for being good was worth quite a bit to him. He was totally happy with the arrangement and it sounded like many others were too. The state had lots of similar programs, roofing government buildings, etc. I thought I'd share how he felt because it wasn't all all what I expected to hear. I expected he'd rip on it and all I heard was good.

a-fried-egg 8y ago

I think the inhabitants of the white collar prisons should be put to work fighting the fires and get paid nothing in return. Most of them are serving hard time for fraud anyway.

hackermailman 8y ago

The US prison system will probably be the first way somebody fulfills the one million jobs RFS https://www.ycombinator.com/rfs/#million https://www.ycombinator.com/rfs/#million Find a way to sell a service the prisoners can learn to do through apprenticing with experienced prisoners (b2b sales, data analysis, ect), find a way to get companies to contract your inmates, find a way to proof it from bad inmates making politicians look embarassed by limiting the scope of the service to something they can't use for crime, find a way to get prisoners to agree by paying them the state min wage,find a way to get prison workers and public to agree by making it as non disruptive to set up as possible, hire former inmates who worked for you to manage the on site operations, counter 'this is slavery' criticism by hiring prisoners themselves to be your company PR. Prisoners can pay off their conviction fines and at the same time save money for release to land soft. Pitch this to YC and get funding to conduct some kind of data gathering to guage what politicians and public would be comfortable with (types of offenses permitted to work, industries that are least adversarial to this model so willing to work with your prisoners, ect).

Friedduck 8y ago

Has everyone forgotten that these people are all convicted of a crime and serving their sentences? For all the issues that exist (gouging for common services, violence, the judicial process, etc.) complaining about the terms of their punishment is absurd. To be sure there should be rehabilitation, and a component of that is incentives. There should be no expectation, though, that those incentives should correlate to what they may receive in the free market.