4 ms·

Well I'm of two minds about this. Linus Torvalds is, by all accounts, a bully. But that's how science goes sometimes; it is unforgiving and will make you feel

by jbob2000 8y ago

Well I'm of two minds about this. Linus Torvalds is, by all accounts, a bully. But that's how science goes sometimes; it is unforgiving and will make you feel stupid and inadequate, why blame the messenger? And science is hard! People regularly get in your way with shitty ideas, especially when you've hit upon something great like Linux or cancer gene discoveries. I kind of dealt with this at work recently. We were asked to disable the right click menu on our website. A business analyst thought that it would solve a session management problem and instead of asking us how to solve the problem, thought that they would prescribe this solution to us. I tried to kill this right out of the gate; "This is a bad idea, it doesn't do what you want, if you want better session handling we don't do it this way, so let's close this story and discuss a better approach". Nope, that wasn't good enough. Cue 2 weeks of meetings explaining what the right click menu does and how it doesn't even come close to solving the real problem. I really just wanted to call this BA an idiot and bully the problem away, it would have saved a significant amount of time and frustration for multiple parties. So I'm imagining this geneticist in similar situations. "Hey, I heard that vitamin C can splice this gene better than how you're doing it, why don't you try?". Cue angry response that could get construed as bullying. All that being said, there are mean people who just fumble about destroying everything in their wake. So lacking any information about this person's bullying... who knows.

HarryHirsch 8y ago
Linus Torvalds is, by all accounts, a bully. Not that again. Some people will defend him because the people he really lets loose on is not newcomers but very experienced contributors from whom he expects better. It's a cultural issue. Recently I spoke to a US general, who as a young officer served as a liaison officer in Germany. He found the German directness "refreshing".
- gameswithgo 8y ago
  You can be linus style direct, more efficiently, by removing the irrelevant insults and swearing. They really serve no purpose other than to make linus feel good and others feel bad. So its not net good for the world. You can say "This commit is garbage I am really angry about it and expected better from you" and not add "you are a fucking abortion" or whatever.
  - dbcurtis 8y ago
    Even that is not helpful to the recipient of the feedback. How about: "Here is a list of standards every code check-in is required to meet. Here are the standards that your current P/R fails. Try again. Do you need help with anything specific? When can you have a new P/R ready?." If applicable: "This delays the schedule, what is your recovery plan?: And occasionally: "At your pay grade, you are expected to know these standards."
    - tbrake 8y ago
      I find this kind of dispassionate feedback both condescending and nauseating tbqh. A few f-bombs let me know you care.
      - dbcurtis 8y ago
        Dispassionate? Let me tell you, if you have ever had an ex-commando officer from the Israeli Defense Force as a boss, you will know with every fiber of your being that those words can be delivered with passion. A passion that leaves no doubt in your mind that "What is your recovery plan?" is not a soft-ball question, and that a soft-ball answer will be promptly discarded. In my case, said boss took part in Operation Entebbe. He ran a very low-BS engineering organization. It was refreshing in a very good way.
mikeash 8y ago
“Cue angry response that could get construed as bullying.” How about... not making an angry response?
nkrisc 8y ago
> I really just wanted to call this BA an idiot and bully the problem away, it would have saved a significant amount of time and frustration for multiple parties. That's about as effective as solving your problem as disabling the contextual menu was for solving theirs. That ensures they'll be working against you and not with you.
- jbob2000 8y ago
  Absolutely, which was why I fought the urge and didn't say it. But if I was getting these requests all the time, all throughout my career, yeah, my guard would get worn down and some harsh words would slip out.
gameswithgo 8y ago
>But that's how science goes sometimes; Is there a word for people who say that "bad thing is ok" because "bad thing is the way it is" ? We all know that is the way it is, and some would like to see that change
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
> I really just wanted to call this BA an idiot and bully the problem away, it would have saved a significant amount of time and frustration for multiple parties. If someone with authority over you isn't willing to take "no" for an answer, they're not going to take "no, you idiot" either. That doesn't save time, it just takes you from "wasting time" to "wasting time and also people are pissed at you."
- jbob2000 8y ago
  > If someone with authority over you isn't willing to take "no" for an answer, they're not going to take "no, you idiot" either. They might! An insult is like a splash of cold water to the face, it's a wake up call. When used surgically, it can push people to do great things. The BA was so, so grossly wrong about what the right click menu does and how websites work that maybe an insult would have caused him to go back and google a few things. Have you ever seen the movie Whiplash? Without the anguish caused by the conductor, do you think our drummer would have pushed himself to become a better drummer?
gregmac 8y ago
> A business analyst thought that it would solve a session management problem and instead of asking us how to solve the problem, thought that they would prescribe this solution to us. ... I really just wanted to call this BA an idiot and bully the problem away, it would have saved a significant amount of time and frustration for multiple parties. I totally understand your frustration and reaction here, as I've had the same. I've found the best way to deal with this is right away start reframing this back to a business problem, often in the form of a user story ("As a _____ user, I want to _____ so I can _____"). Keep asking "why" to refine it down to what is really trying to be accomplished. The point is to not get into an argument about a technical implementation with someone who doesn't have the knowledge to argue about it (whether they realize it or not), because it's nearly impossible to not come across as a bully. In this situation I would almost outright dismiss the suggestion of the right-click, saying something like "Forget the right-click thing for a minute; In business terms, what is it you're trying to prevent and why?". We're both trying to solve a business (or user-facing) problem here, let's make sure we're both on the same page about that before we even begin to discuss how to do it. I am very up front with people about my process: If you bring me a perceived solution, I'm always going to boil it back to a problem and work from there. Sometimes I -- or more often we, the dev team -- might come to the same conclusion, but I'd say the vast majority of times, in my experience, we will come up with a better implementation that takes less time to implement, has other benefits that are not part of the original objective, and/or avoids a major downside not originally thought of. Arguing is going to make you seem like a bully; calmly reframing the discussion shows you're trying to work together.

HarryHirsch 8y ago

Linus Torvalds is, by all accounts, a bully. Not that again. Some people will defend him because the people he really lets loose on is not newcomers but very experienced contributors from whom he expects better. It's a cultural issue. Recently I spoke to a US general, who as a young officer served as a liaison officer in Germany. He found the German directness "refreshing".

gameswithgo 8y ago
You can be linus style direct, more efficiently, by removing the irrelevant insults and swearing. They really serve no purpose other than to make linus feel good and others feel bad. So its not net good for the world. You can say "This commit is garbage I am really angry about it and expected better from you" and not add "you are a fucking abortion" or whatever.
- dbcurtis 8y ago
  Even that is not helpful to the recipient of the feedback. How about: "Here is a list of standards every code check-in is required to meet. Here are the standards that your current P/R fails. Try again. Do you need help with anything specific? When can you have a new P/R ready?." If applicable: "This delays the schedule, what is your recovery plan?: And occasionally: "At your pay grade, you are expected to know these standards."
  - tbrake 8y ago
    I find this kind of dispassionate feedback both condescending and nauseating tbqh. A few f-bombs let me know you care.
    - dbcurtis 8y ago
      Dispassionate? Let me tell you, if you have ever had an ex-commando officer from the Israeli Defense Force as a boss, you will know with every fiber of your being that those words can be delivered with passion. A passion that leaves no doubt in your mind that "What is your recovery plan?" is not a soft-ball question, and that a soft-ball answer will be promptly discarded. In my case, said boss took part in Operation Entebbe. He ran a very low-BS engineering organization. It was refreshing in a very good way.

mikeash 8y ago

“Cue angry response that could get construed as bullying.” How about... not making an angry response?

nkrisc 8y ago

> I really just wanted to call this BA an idiot and bully the problem away, it would have saved a significant amount of time and frustration for multiple parties. That's about as effective as solving your problem as disabling the contextual menu was for solving theirs. That ensures they'll be working against you and not with you.

jbob2000 8y ago
Absolutely, which was why I fought the urge and didn't say it. But if I was getting these requests all the time, all throughout my career, yeah, my guard would get worn down and some harsh words would slip out.

gameswithgo 8y ago

>But that's how science goes sometimes; Is there a word for people who say that "bad thing is ok" because "bad thing is the way it is" ? We all know that is the way it is, and some would like to see that change

PhasmaFelis 8y ago

> I really just wanted to call this BA an idiot and bully the problem away, it would have saved a significant amount of time and frustration for multiple parties. If someone with authority over you isn't willing to take "no" for an answer, they're not going to take "no, you idiot" either. That doesn't save time, it just takes you from "wasting time" to "wasting time and also people are pissed at you."

jbob2000 8y ago
> If someone with authority over you isn't willing to take "no" for an answer, they're not going to take "no, you idiot" either. They might! An insult is like a splash of cold water to the face, it's a wake up call. When used surgically, it can push people to do great things. The BA was so, so grossly wrong about what the right click menu does and how websites work that maybe an insult would have caused him to go back and google a few things. Have you ever seen the movie Whiplash? Without the anguish caused by the conductor, do you think our drummer would have pushed himself to become a better drummer?

gregmac 8y ago

> A business analyst thought that it would solve a session management problem and instead of asking us how to solve the problem, thought that they would prescribe this solution to us. ... I really just wanted to call this BA an idiot and bully the problem away, it would have saved a significant amount of time and frustration for multiple parties. I totally understand your frustration and reaction here, as I've had the same. I've found the best way to deal with this is right away start reframing this back to a business problem, often in the form of a user story ("As a _____ user, I want to _____ so I can _____"). Keep asking "why" to refine it down to what is really trying to be accomplished. The point is to not get into an argument about a technical implementation with someone who doesn't have the knowledge to argue about it (whether they realize it or not), because it's nearly impossible to not come across as a bully. In this situation I would almost outright dismiss the suggestion of the right-click, saying something like "Forget the right-click thing for a minute; In business terms, what is it you're trying to prevent and why?". We're both trying to solve a business (or user-facing) problem here, let's make sure we're both on the same page about that before we even begin to discuss how to do it. I am very up front with people about my process: If you bring me a perceived solution, I'm always going to boil it back to a problem and work from there. Sometimes I -- or more often we, the dev team -- might come to the same conclusion, but I'd say the vast majority of times, in my experience, we will come up with a better implementation that takes less time to implement, has other benefits that are not part of the original objective, and/or avoids a major downside not originally thought of. Arguing is going to make you seem like a bully; calmly reframing the discussion shows you're trying to work together.