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I have spent last 30 minutes trying to figure out teacher vs bureaucrats ratio for NYC Department of Education. [They really make it hard to figure these things

I have spent last 30 minutes trying to figure out teacher vs bureaucrats ratio for NYC Department of Education. [They really make it hard to figure these things out] What's your best guess about the ratio? Total Employees: 135,000 (from: http://schools.nyc.gov/Employees/default.htm http://schools.nyc.gov/Employees/default.htm) Teachers: 80,000 (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Department_of_Education http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Department_of_Edu...) 40% bureaucrats. That's Forty Percent! And for Federal Department of Education, look at the org chart: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Ed_gl_org_chart.gif http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Ed_gl_org... From the org chart, WH Initiative on Historically Black Colls & Univs Staff - What the heck is that? International Affairs Office - For what? And there are two more offices, Office of the Under Secretary and Office of the Deputy Secretary! This is worse org structure than I would have imagined at a Fortune 500. [BTW, this does look like successful job creation to me, though I am not sure about the value add] And despite having the highest spending per student, everyone still complaints about the US public school system. In closing, Sir, you simply have too much faith in government's ability to spend money wisely.

Anechoic 16y ago
40% bureaucrats. That's Forty Percent! You seem to be assuming that there are only two types of employees in NYC schools - teachers and bureaucrats. There are in fact many types: teachers and bureaucrats sure, but also janitors & maintenance staff, security, IT staff, librarians, health staff, sports coaches, etc. WH Initiative on Historically Black Colls & Univs Staff - What the heck is that? http://www2.ed.gov/about/inits/list/whhbcu/edlite-index.html http://www2.ed.gov/about/inits/list/whhbcu/edlite-index.html International Affairs Office - For what? http://www2.ed.gov/about/inits/ed/internationaled/index.html http://www2.ed.gov/about/inits/ed/internationaled/index.html
- anamax 16y ago
  > You seem to be assuming that there are only two types of employees in NYC schools - teachers and bureaucrats. There are in fact many types: teachers and bureaucrats sure, but also janitors & maintenance staff, security, IT staff, librarians, health staff, sports coaches, etc. How about some historical data on this ratio? (I'd agree that the security needs may be higher now, but IT is supposed to reduce the number of people needed and the others should be flat.)
  - Anechoic 16y ago
    How about some historical data on this ratio? Historical data may not be of much use given how much schools have changed in the last 20-30 years with mainlining, foreign-student integration, increases in poverty, ADA, etc. IT is supposed to reduce the number of people needed Heh. IME I've always seen the opposite - computers were supposed to reduce the number of people needed for a task but small business need to hire an IT guy to take care of the system, thereby increasing the payroll. the others should be flat Only if you assume that all else stayed the same, and things clearly haven't.
    - anamax 16y ago
      > Historical data may not be of much use given how much schools have changed in the last 20-30 years with mainlining, foreign-student integration, increases in poverty, ADA, etc. The recent mainlining of the "challenged" is just reversing a fairly recent trend towards seggregating them. Poverty hasn't increased, it has decreased - we've moved the line and we're providing much more assistance that we don't count. > Heh. IME I've always seen the opposite - computers were supposed to reduce the number of people needed for a task but small business need to hire an IT guy to take care of the system, thereby increasing the payroll. The NYC school district isn't a small biz.
- solutionyogi 16y ago
  Do you think they have janitors on their payroll on full time basis? I don't think so. Also, I know for a fact that NYC Dept of Ed outsources a lot of their IT work. [I know because I contracted for a project for them and don't even get me started on how those projects were cost overruns.] To be honest, I don't know the breakdown of the 135k numbers. Could you please find the breakdown for me? Also, why is it so hard for me to find this information? Why can I not see a simple, easy to see employees and budget numbers. E.g. Teachers: 85,000 Officers : 30,000 IT Staff: 15,000 Others: 10,000. Total: 135,000 Expenses: Teachers Salary: 6200 million Other Salary: 3000 million Infrastructure: 5000 million Others: 4000 million Total: 18.5 Billion Total Budget Amount from http://schools.nyc.gov/AboutUs/funding/overview/default.htm http://schools.nyc.gov/AboutUs/funding/overview/default.htm I could not find that information anywhere. I would really appreciate if anyone can find that information for me OR give me some pointers about where I can find it. I think once everyone gets to see those numbers, they will change their mind about government spending. I am willing to spend my own personal time to find the breakdown of the numbers but I am not sure where I should start. And about WH Initiative, thank you for linking to that page. From the link to Budget on that page: They have a budget (http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/budget10/summary/edlite-section3e.html#titleIII http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/budget10/summary/ed...) of half a billion dollars with line items like: Strengthening Institutions: 80 million Strengthening Historically Black colleges and universities: 238 million Other line items... Total: 588 million. So the main initiative (Historically Black colleges and universities) takes up 40% (238 million out of 588 million) of the budget. Where does the other 60% go? Who approved it? And if certain colleges were 'historically' black, why do we have to spend 240 million in 2009 to strengthen them? And here's my biggest concern: How do you evaluate if you are getting worth for your 538 millions? There is no way you can evaluate how successful someone is at 'Strengthening' something, anything.
  - Anechoic 16y ago
    Do you think they have janitors on their payroll on full time basis? All of them? Probably not. Some of them? I'd be shocked if they didn't - our much smaller urban school system certainly does, and they are up to the eyeballs in cleaning up messes. I'd presume that NYC's janitorial staff would be that much busier. Could you please find the breakdown for me? Here you go: https://www.nycenet.edu/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/exp01/y2008_2009/function.asp https://www.nycenet.edu/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/exp01/y2... And about WH Initiative, [..] Where does the other 60% go? The other line items - "Strengthening Alaska Native and Native Hawaiian-serving Institutions," "Strengthening Asian American and Native American Pacific Islander-serving Institutions," "Strengthening Native American-serving nontribal institutions," etc (summing up all those line items gives you $588.9 million) Who approved it? Presumably Congress. And if certain colleges were 'historically' black, why do we have to spend 240 million in 2009 to strengthen them? Huh? And here's my biggest concern: How do you evaluate if you are getting worth for your 538 millions? Having been on the ass-end of an FAR audit, I can guarantee they've found some metric to evaluate the results of the spending.

Anechoic 16y ago

40% bureaucrats. That's Forty Percent! You seem to be assuming that there are only two types of employees in NYC schools - teachers and bureaucrats. There are in fact many types: teachers and bureaucrats sure, but also janitors & maintenance staff, security, IT staff, librarians, health staff, sports coaches, etc. WH Initiative on Historically Black Colls & Univs Staff - What the heck is that? http://www2.ed.gov/about/inits/list/whhbcu/edlite-index.html http://www2.ed.gov/about/inits/list/whhbcu/edlite-index.html International Affairs Office - For what? http://www2.ed.gov/about/inits/ed/internationaled/index.html http://www2.ed.gov/about/inits/ed/internationaled/index.html

anamax 16y ago
> You seem to be assuming that there are only two types of employees in NYC schools - teachers and bureaucrats. There are in fact many types: teachers and bureaucrats sure, but also janitors & maintenance staff, security, IT staff, librarians, health staff, sports coaches, etc. How about some historical data on this ratio? (I'd agree that the security needs may be higher now, but IT is supposed to reduce the number of people needed and the others should be flat.)
- Anechoic 16y ago
  How about some historical data on this ratio? Historical data may not be of much use given how much schools have changed in the last 20-30 years with mainlining, foreign-student integration, increases in poverty, ADA, etc. IT is supposed to reduce the number of people needed Heh. IME I've always seen the opposite - computers were supposed to reduce the number of people needed for a task but small business need to hire an IT guy to take care of the system, thereby increasing the payroll. the others should be flat Only if you assume that all else stayed the same, and things clearly haven't.
  - anamax 16y ago
    > Historical data may not be of much use given how much schools have changed in the last 20-30 years with mainlining, foreign-student integration, increases in poverty, ADA, etc. The recent mainlining of the "challenged" is just reversing a fairly recent trend towards seggregating them. Poverty hasn't increased, it has decreased - we've moved the line and we're providing much more assistance that we don't count. > Heh. IME I've always seen the opposite - computers were supposed to reduce the number of people needed for a task but small business need to hire an IT guy to take care of the system, thereby increasing the payroll. The NYC school district isn't a small biz.
solutionyogi 16y ago
Do you think they have janitors on their payroll on full time basis? I don't think so. Also, I know for a fact that NYC Dept of Ed outsources a lot of their IT work. [I know because I contracted for a project for them and don't even get me started on how those projects were cost overruns.] To be honest, I don't know the breakdown of the 135k numbers. Could you please find the breakdown for me? Also, why is it so hard for me to find this information? Why can I not see a simple, easy to see employees and budget numbers. E.g. Teachers: 85,000 Officers : 30,000 IT Staff: 15,000 Others: 10,000. Total: 135,000 Expenses: Teachers Salary: 6200 million Other Salary: 3000 million Infrastructure: 5000 million Others: 4000 million Total: 18.5 Billion Total Budget Amount from http://schools.nyc.gov/AboutUs/funding/overview/default.htm http://schools.nyc.gov/AboutUs/funding/overview/default.htm I could not find that information anywhere. I would really appreciate if anyone can find that information for me OR give me some pointers about where I can find it. I think once everyone gets to see those numbers, they will change their mind about government spending. I am willing to spend my own personal time to find the breakdown of the numbers but I am not sure where I should start. And about WH Initiative, thank you for linking to that page. From the link to Budget on that page: They have a budget (http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/budget10/summary/edlite-section3e.html#titleIII http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/budget10/summary/ed...) of half a billion dollars with line items like: Strengthening Institutions: 80 million Strengthening Historically Black colleges and universities: 238 million Other line items... Total: 588 million. So the main initiative (Historically Black colleges and universities) takes up 40% (238 million out of 588 million) of the budget. Where does the other 60% go? Who approved it? And if certain colleges were 'historically' black, why do we have to spend 240 million in 2009 to strengthen them? And here's my biggest concern: How do you evaluate if you are getting worth for your 538 millions? There is no way you can evaluate how successful someone is at 'Strengthening' something, anything.
- Anechoic 16y ago
  Do you think they have janitors on their payroll on full time basis? All of them? Probably not. Some of them? I'd be shocked if they didn't - our much smaller urban school system certainly does, and they are up to the eyeballs in cleaning up messes. I'd presume that NYC's janitorial staff would be that much busier. Could you please find the breakdown for me? Here you go: https://www.nycenet.edu/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/exp01/y2008_2009/function.asp https://www.nycenet.edu/offices/d_chanc_oper/budget/exp01/y2... And about WH Initiative, [..] Where does the other 60% go? The other line items - "Strengthening Alaska Native and Native Hawaiian-serving Institutions," "Strengthening Asian American and Native American Pacific Islander-serving Institutions," "Strengthening Native American-serving nontribal institutions," etc (summing up all those line items gives you $588.9 million) Who approved it? Presumably Congress. And if certain colleges were 'historically' black, why do we have to spend 240 million in 2009 to strengthen them? Huh? And here's my biggest concern: How do you evaluate if you are getting worth for your 538 millions? Having been on the ass-end of an FAR audit, I can guarantee they've found some metric to evaluate the results of the spending.