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When you signed the loan for the mortgage, you made a business transaction with the bank. Looked at through this light, there's a strong ethical argument that

When you signed the loan for the mortgage, you made a business transaction with the bank. Looked at through this light, there's a strong ethical argument that no agreement was made, as very few single humans are informed enough to have the capacity to genuinely consent to an agreement as complex as a modern mortgage.

scarface74 8y ago
What is “complex” about a traditional 30 year fixed mortgage? The type that most people have been doing for decades - aside from the craziness between 2000-2008?
- ianamartin 8y ago
  Giving consent does not imply that it's informed. How often do you read the full EULA before you click okay? If you did, read it all, do you think you know enough about to understand all the legal ramifications? If you're about to say yes, perhapd consider checking yourself since many of the clauses commonly included in EULAs are completely untested in court. No one--not even the legal experts who wrote them--knows for sure what these things mean, what's enforceable, and what isn't. Maybe you have a better chance at getting the idea of it because you are more techie, and you know some legal jargon. But to most people, an EULA is complete and utter gibberish. To some people, a 30-year fixed mortgage is utterly meaningless gibberish. Yeah, you can sign on the line, but it's not any more informed consent than what most people do when they click okay before they log in.
  - WalterBright 8y ago
    One of the papers you sign when getting a mortgage is one that says simply "I have read and understood all these documents." I have read them. There are a lot of pages, but it's pretty straightforward. (The escrow agent just sat there impatiently twirling her pencil and sighing, but she never said a word.) If you can't read them, or can't understand them, hire a lawyer to do it for you, check for any hanky-panky, and explain it to you. It's worth a couple hundred bucks to protect your 6 figure investment.
    - MertsA 8y ago
      >The escrow agent just sat there impatiently twirling her pencil and sighing, but she never said a word That's because you're probably 1 out of 100 that actually bothers to read and understand all of those documents. Your own realtor doesn't understand those documents and the vast majority of home buyers do not hire their own lawyer to check all of the documents and contracts they sign when buying a home. Whether it's worth it or not to actually read all of those documents and have a lawyer review them before signing or not, that's not what happens in the vast majority of cases. It's not an understatement that the majority of home buyers do not understand all of the obligations of their mortgage. >One of the papers you sign when getting a mortgage is one that says simply "I have read and understood all these documents." And I'm sure the EULA that everyone always skips says the same thing. That doesn't change the fact that almost no one actually has read and understood all of the documents.
      - WalterBright 8y ago
        And yet if you sign "I have read and understood these documents", how can you claim in court that you didn't? BTW, I didn't have a lawyer review them. But they are not hard to understand. Probably a century of lawsuits have shaped their contents, and they are shaped by judgments against the authors of them when they are ambiguous or confusing. In fact, they're fairly standardized. I've never had trouble with mortgage documents, but I have had trouble with car loans, repeatedly. The terms we verbally agreed on were altered in the final document, always significantly in the lender's favor. I always make them fix it, and they'll lie and say those were the terms we agreed, or those terms are their policy, or those changes are immaterial, or they don't have the time to fix the documents, all kinds of crap. I.e. it's not that the documents are hard to understand, it's that they slip altered terms in them.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Giving consent does not imply that it's informed. How often do you read the full EULA before you click okay? I’ve also never had an attorney sitting by me for an hour explaining each paragraph before I signed the EULA.
- zorpner 8y ago
  Truly, it is a simple document that no one has ever been confused about the finer points of. The implications for bankruptcy proceedings, estate law, injury liability, and chain of title are all so straightforward that everyone knows them and no one ever needs a lawyer.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    I think most people realize that your home loan is secured by your home. Despite what the lawyers say, bankruptcy won’t usually protect a secured asset. I remember one of the most explicitly explain parts of the home was the title. “Injury liability”? You are required to have homeowners insurance and if it’s not good enough to satisfy the loan, they will make sure you know it. While pre-2008, I had loans without an escrow that paid the insurance. They are a lot stricter about it now.

scarface74 8y ago

What is “complex” about a traditional 30 year fixed mortgage? The type that most people have been doing for decades - aside from the craziness between 2000-2008?

ianamartin 8y ago
Giving consent does not imply that it's informed. How often do you read the full EULA before you click okay? If you did, read it all, do you think you know enough about to understand all the legal ramifications? If you're about to say yes, perhapd consider checking yourself since many of the clauses commonly included in EULAs are completely untested in court. No one--not even the legal experts who wrote them--knows for sure what these things mean, what's enforceable, and what isn't. Maybe you have a better chance at getting the idea of it because you are more techie, and you know some legal jargon. But to most people, an EULA is complete and utter gibberish. To some people, a 30-year fixed mortgage is utterly meaningless gibberish. Yeah, you can sign on the line, but it's not any more informed consent than what most people do when they click okay before they log in.
- WalterBright 8y ago
  One of the papers you sign when getting a mortgage is one that says simply "I have read and understood all these documents." I have read them. There are a lot of pages, but it's pretty straightforward. (The escrow agent just sat there impatiently twirling her pencil and sighing, but she never said a word.) If you can't read them, or can't understand them, hire a lawyer to do it for you, check for any hanky-panky, and explain it to you. It's worth a couple hundred bucks to protect your 6 figure investment.
  - MertsA 8y ago
    >The escrow agent just sat there impatiently twirling her pencil and sighing, but she never said a word That's because you're probably 1 out of 100 that actually bothers to read and understand all of those documents. Your own realtor doesn't understand those documents and the vast majority of home buyers do not hire their own lawyer to check all of the documents and contracts they sign when buying a home. Whether it's worth it or not to actually read all of those documents and have a lawyer review them before signing or not, that's not what happens in the vast majority of cases. It's not an understatement that the majority of home buyers do not understand all of the obligations of their mortgage. >One of the papers you sign when getting a mortgage is one that says simply "I have read and understood all these documents." And I'm sure the EULA that everyone always skips says the same thing. That doesn't change the fact that almost no one actually has read and understood all of the documents.
    - WalterBright 8y ago
      And yet if you sign "I have read and understood these documents", how can you claim in court that you didn't? BTW, I didn't have a lawyer review them. But they are not hard to understand. Probably a century of lawsuits have shaped their contents, and they are shaped by judgments against the authors of them when they are ambiguous or confusing. In fact, they're fairly standardized. I've never had trouble with mortgage documents, but I have had trouble with car loans, repeatedly. The terms we verbally agreed on were altered in the final document, always significantly in the lender's favor. I always make them fix it, and they'll lie and say those were the terms we agreed, or those terms are their policy, or those changes are immaterial, or they don't have the time to fix the documents, all kinds of crap. I.e. it's not that the documents are hard to understand, it's that they slip altered terms in them.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Giving consent does not imply that it's informed. How often do you read the full EULA before you click okay? I’ve also never had an attorney sitting by me for an hour explaining each paragraph before I signed the EULA.
zorpner 8y ago
Truly, it is a simple document that no one has ever been confused about the finer points of. The implications for bankruptcy proceedings, estate law, injury liability, and chain of title are all so straightforward that everyone knows them and no one ever needs a lawyer.
- scarface74 8y ago
  I think most people realize that your home loan is secured by your home. Despite what the lawyers say, bankruptcy won’t usually protect a secured asset. I remember one of the most explicitly explain parts of the home was the title. “Injury liability”? You are required to have homeowners insurance and if it’s not good enough to satisfy the loan, they will make sure you know it. While pre-2008, I had loans without an escrow that paid the insurance. They are a lot stricter about it now.