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Not quite sure what the relevance is today of this article from 2012. It's core message is a good one, though. Americans are used to getting pushed around by

Not quite sure what the relevance is today of this article from 2012. It's core message is a good one, though. Americans are used to getting pushed around by "the machine". Bills come from various places (utilities, hospitals, banks, the government) and we pay them without thinking. Why think that much about it? You have to pay or your precious credit rating will suffer. But the mistakes are so common it's likely that everyone has a personal example from some point in their lives. Credit card fraud, billing errors, mistaken identity, hidden charges on a phone bill, and on and on, and on again. The companies are faceless, emotionless, and completely without loyalty to their customers. It's rather insane that we grant them fidelity in return. You've paid your insurance bill diligently for years, but as soon as they are needed, they start looking for ways to get out of paying the claim. They will happily screw you over the tiniest technicality. The insurance industry certainly isn't the only offender in that regard. Some people might scoff at the ideas in the article. You took out a loan, only a deadbeat leech would default on that loan and expect to keep their house. Sounds about right, but that assumes we live in the world we all imagine. The "right" world, where business still resembles interpersonal relationships. It doesn't, and we don't live there. It shouldn't just be about fighting Wall Street greed, or getting out of an eviction. Everyone should be on top of any business from which they have purchased a service. Be informed. Force them to deliver the service they promised. Force them to make you whole when you've been screwed. Force them to prove that they have accurately managed your account and they they truly do own your debt. Above all, make them actually compete again. It would be nice if everyone did that, but I don't actually believe that they will. Oh well...

onemoresoop 8y ago
> Be informed. Force them to deliver the service they promised. Force them to make you whole when you've been screwed. Force them to prove that they have accurately managed your account and they they truly do own your debt. Above all, make them actually compete again. Yes this could be done but it's a never ending battle and it drains all your productivity when fighting. And when you have your small victory after hours of being on hold, they might give you back what they owe you, but they do this en-masse and some people don't have the energy to fight back, people tire. That's why we should ALL fight back this systematic scamming so that it doesn't happen in the first place. Individual fighting back doesn't beat a machine set on a bad behavior.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  Too bad class action lawsuits no longer benefit the consumers involved. If that system worked, it would be a way for consumers to fight back en masse. The alternative is legislation, but 'blah blah no more regulation blah blah.'
  - dv_dt 8y ago
    I agree that so many class action suits seem to result in peanuts for those in the class, but I also think it's difficult to assess how much that acts as a deterrent to even worse behaviors.
    - onemoresoop 8y ago
      I think it does affect them but they would find ways around it because they are at the center of the operation. We are always one step behind, doing hard work trying to untangle what they machinated. I think we should fight politically, we should strive to make scamming more punishable than it is now such that if they're caught, not only should they give back what you stole but be taken out of business completely.
  - thanatropism 8y ago
    It's even easier to get legislation wrong.
pyromine 8y ago
>Not quite sure what the relevance is today of this article from 2012. It's core message is a good one, though. I can't seem to find it at the moment, but it was linked in an article yesterday that was about clouded titles and how the mortgage crisis continues to have effects on the ownership of homes long after people thought it was over.
wyldfire 8y ago
> Not quite sure what the relevance is today of this article from 2012. This article was cited by "A million-dollar brownstone that no one owned" which was on HN yesterday [1]. > MERS is an entity that was created by the banks but has governmental power. This is both true and hard to believe, so here is a 7,000-word Harper’s piece that both explains it and doesn’t make this article any longer. The piece details MERS’s rise to power and also suggests that it is the single most-guilty party in the whole mortgage crisis. ... > THE BEHAVIORS THAT RESULTED IN THE $25B 'NATIONAL MORTGAGE SETTLEMENT' IN 2013 HAVE CONTINUED UNABATED TO THIS DAY. IN FACT, THEY'VE GOTTEN WORSE. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17804023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17804023
shkkmo 8y ago
It's relevant because MERS is still a problem and up to many of the same shenanigans it was 10 years ago.
icantdrive55 8y ago
1. Only the wealthy can fight companies with success. People like Trump. 2. Since the companies own our politicians through donations/lobbyists; all we have is BBB, and Yelp. Not good tools? The Federal Trade commission seems to sit back, until a case hits their fancy. The guy who was making it difficult to stop automatic payments on boner pills comes to mind. 3. Personally I would like to see Credit agencies give all people three strikes. You would have three times to just not make a payment, and it wouldn't affect your credit every ten years. 5. It should be easier to take a out of state corporation to Small Claims court. 6. Forced arbitration laws should be nixed. 7. Our bankruptcy laws need to be reformed. I feel they are pretty fair, except the primary home should be out of any creditor's reach--for any reason except blatant fraud-- lying about income on a preapproved cc application is not a serious offense. Serious fraud like lying on a mortgage application, or a large business loan. (I don't want to debate our lovely CC industry. IMO they all need an a serious ass kicking.) In Texas, creditors can't touch your primary residence during a bankruptcy. The rest of the states don't offer that. Creditors can easily attach your home. Hospitals routinely show up at bankruptcy hearings in order to get their money, along with the other big companies. A primary home shouldn't be a target. Small companies to perk up with "Charge Backs". Big companies could care less?
dfxm12 8y ago
It would be nice if everyone did that, but I don't actually believe that they will. Oh well... It would be nice if everyone had the wherewithal to. It would be nice if they did that it would have a lasting impact. There are a few problems though. "The Machine" is set up so that we don't have the time or money to actually fight these claims. I certainly can't miss time from work to deal with much of this. Maybe if it'll bankrupt me either way, but for every little error I've come across, the lost time and wages aren't worth it financially. Am I going to go into debt to sue someone just to prove a point? No. That would be a terrible use of my resources. Also, these agreements we enter into are written with technicalities built in. To expose them would take an intricate knowledge of contract law. Companies rely on this imbalance of knowledge and power to take advantage of us. Even if there is a successful claim it's not like it would automatically set a precedent or retroactively void existing contracts or prevent new loopholes to be written into new contracts. Action from private citizens is a band-aid here. Something needs to come from a higher power. It would be great to have a government that works for us in this regard, but they side with big business here. It sucks, but it's a reality of the machine.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  I want to know who all these people are who just thoughtlessly pay every bill they receive in the mail as long as it looks official. I have some bills I need to start printin’!
  - dwater 8y ago
    There already are people who take advantage of others in this way. You will need to differentiate yourself to be successful in this crowded marketplace. https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0258-fake-debt-collectors https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0258-fake-debt-collect...
rayiner 8y ago
> It would be nice if everyone did that, but I don't actually believe that they will. Oh well... That presupposes that billing errors are common enough that it's actually worth your time to ferret them out. I don't think you can take that as a given. In a country of 300 million people, with instant communication on the web, you can easily find thousands of instances of billing errors and other abuses. But what are the odds, statistically, of you actually being on the receiving end of one? Because that's what drives the equation of whether it's worthwhile to push back.
mv4 8y ago
This reminds me of when my health insurer, Anthem, refused to cover a test performed during annual screening. Once I called them, waited patiently on hold, then read them a portion of their own document "Preventive care services covered with no member cost-share", they promptly waived the fee. Makes me wonder how many people simply accept these fraudulent charges, because they don't have the time, the energy, or the resources to fight "the machine". Over 73 million people are served by Anthem and its affiliated companies, so that can't be a small number.
- debacle 8y ago
  It's not fraud. It's honest mistakes that seemingly every company like this seems to make and also fix as soon as you call. Totally not fraud.
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    If it happens occasionally it is an accident, if it happens frequently it absolutely is deliberate and fraud. Or the company is too incompetent to be in business.
    - ksdale 8y ago
      Exactly! If it’s happened randomly to you once, it’s probably happened to hundreds or thousands of other people. And besides that, when even completely innocent mistakes cost me two hours of time on the phone, I expect a VERY low rate of mistakes. A lot of big companies seem to take the view that it’s no harm, no foul if they fix it after a single call, but it’s easy to spend 20 or more hours a year dealing with this crap when everyone does it.
      - paulie_a 8y ago
        I've personally found emailing companies directly to be effective. Basically stating that I attempted to contact them, I was bounced around and put on hold and gave up. I've literally used the phrase "give me a holler" at my phone number and received calls back the next morning. If they want to get their money they can reach out to me. I just won't pay any part of the bill until the issue is resolved. And I am definitely not going to waste my time on hold.
SilasX 8y ago
Could you please indicate which parts of this are quoting the article? I've seen these exact paragraphs elsewhere in the discussion.

onemoresoop 8y ago

> Be informed. Force them to deliver the service they promised. Force them to make you whole when you've been screwed. Force them to prove that they have accurately managed your account and they they truly do own your debt. Above all, make them actually compete again. Yes this could be done but it's a never ending battle and it drains all your productivity when fighting. And when you have your small victory after hours of being on hold, they might give you back what they owe you, but they do this en-masse and some people don't have the energy to fight back, people tire. That's why we should ALL fight back this systematic scamming so that it doesn't happen in the first place. Individual fighting back doesn't beat a machine set on a bad behavior.

craftyguy 8y ago
Too bad class action lawsuits no longer benefit the consumers involved. If that system worked, it would be a way for consumers to fight back en masse. The alternative is legislation, but 'blah blah no more regulation blah blah.'
- dv_dt 8y ago
  I agree that so many class action suits seem to result in peanuts for those in the class, but I also think it's difficult to assess how much that acts as a deterrent to even worse behaviors.
  - onemoresoop 8y ago
    I think it does affect them but they would find ways around it because they are at the center of the operation. We are always one step behind, doing hard work trying to untangle what they machinated. I think we should fight politically, we should strive to make scamming more punishable than it is now such that if they're caught, not only should they give back what you stole but be taken out of business completely.
- thanatropism 8y ago
  It's even easier to get legislation wrong.

pyromine 8y ago

>Not quite sure what the relevance is today of this article from 2012. It's core message is a good one, though. I can't seem to find it at the moment, but it was linked in an article yesterday that was about clouded titles and how the mortgage crisis continues to have effects on the ownership of homes long after people thought it was over.

wyldfire 8y ago

> Not quite sure what the relevance is today of this article from 2012. This article was cited by "A million-dollar brownstone that no one owned" which was on HN yesterday [1]. > MERS is an entity that was created by the banks but has governmental power. This is both true and hard to believe, so here is a 7,000-word Harper’s piece that both explains it and doesn’t make this article any longer. The piece details MERS’s rise to power and also suggests that it is the single most-guilty party in the whole mortgage crisis. ... > THE BEHAVIORS THAT RESULTED IN THE $25B 'NATIONAL MORTGAGE SETTLEMENT' IN 2013 HAVE CONTINUED UNABATED TO THIS DAY. IN FACT, THEY'VE GOTTEN WORSE. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17804023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17804023

shkkmo 8y ago

It's relevant because MERS is still a problem and up to many of the same shenanigans it was 10 years ago.

icantdrive55 8y ago

1. Only the wealthy can fight companies with success. People like Trump. 2. Since the companies own our politicians through donations/lobbyists; all we have is BBB, and Yelp. Not good tools? The Federal Trade commission seems to sit back, until a case hits their fancy. The guy who was making it difficult to stop automatic payments on boner pills comes to mind. 3. Personally I would like to see Credit agencies give all people three strikes. You would have three times to just not make a payment, and it wouldn't affect your credit every ten years. 5. It should be easier to take a out of state corporation to Small Claims court. 6. Forced arbitration laws should be nixed. 7. Our bankruptcy laws need to be reformed. I feel they are pretty fair, except the primary home should be out of any creditor's reach--for any reason except blatant fraud-- lying about income on a preapproved cc application is not a serious offense. Serious fraud like lying on a mortgage application, or a large business loan. (I don't want to debate our lovely CC industry. IMO they all need an a serious ass kicking.) In Texas, creditors can't touch your primary residence during a bankruptcy. The rest of the states don't offer that. Creditors can easily attach your home. Hospitals routinely show up at bankruptcy hearings in order to get their money, along with the other big companies. A primary home shouldn't be a target. Small companies to perk up with "Charge Backs". Big companies could care less?

dfxm12 8y ago

It would be nice if everyone did that, but I don't actually believe that they will. Oh well... It would be nice if everyone had the wherewithal to. It would be nice if they did that it would have a lasting impact. There are a few problems though. "The Machine" is set up so that we don't have the time or money to actually fight these claims. I certainly can't miss time from work to deal with much of this. Maybe if it'll bankrupt me either way, but for every little error I've come across, the lost time and wages aren't worth it financially. Am I going to go into debt to sue someone just to prove a point? No. That would be a terrible use of my resources. Also, these agreements we enter into are written with technicalities built in. To expose them would take an intricate knowledge of contract law. Companies rely on this imbalance of knowledge and power to take advantage of us. Even if there is a successful claim it's not like it would automatically set a precedent or retroactively void existing contracts or prevent new loopholes to be written into new contracts. Action from private citizens is a band-aid here. Something needs to come from a higher power. It would be great to have a government that works for us in this regard, but they side with big business here. It sucks, but it's a reality of the machine.

ryandrake 8y ago
I want to know who all these people are who just thoughtlessly pay every bill they receive in the mail as long as it looks official. I have some bills I need to start printin’!
- dwater 8y ago
  There already are people who take advantage of others in this way. You will need to differentiate yourself to be successful in this crowded marketplace. https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0258-fake-debt-collectors https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/0258-fake-debt-collect...

rayiner 8y ago

> It would be nice if everyone did that, but I don't actually believe that they will. Oh well... That presupposes that billing errors are common enough that it's actually worth your time to ferret them out. I don't think you can take that as a given. In a country of 300 million people, with instant communication on the web, you can easily find thousands of instances of billing errors and other abuses. But what are the odds, statistically, of you actually being on the receiving end of one? Because that's what drives the equation of whether it's worthwhile to push back.

mv4 8y ago

This reminds me of when my health insurer, Anthem, refused to cover a test performed during annual screening. Once I called them, waited patiently on hold, then read them a portion of their own document "Preventive care services covered with no member cost-share", they promptly waived the fee. Makes me wonder how many people simply accept these fraudulent charges, because they don't have the time, the energy, or the resources to fight "the machine". Over 73 million people are served by Anthem and its affiliated companies, so that can't be a small number.

debacle 8y ago
It's not fraud. It's honest mistakes that seemingly every company like this seems to make and also fix as soon as you call. Totally not fraud.
- paulie_a 8y ago
  If it happens occasionally it is an accident, if it happens frequently it absolutely is deliberate and fraud. Or the company is too incompetent to be in business.
  - ksdale 8y ago
    Exactly! If it’s happened randomly to you once, it’s probably happened to hundreds or thousands of other people. And besides that, when even completely innocent mistakes cost me two hours of time on the phone, I expect a VERY low rate of mistakes. A lot of big companies seem to take the view that it’s no harm, no foul if they fix it after a single call, but it’s easy to spend 20 or more hours a year dealing with this crap when everyone does it.
    - paulie_a 8y ago
      I've personally found emailing companies directly to be effective. Basically stating that I attempted to contact them, I was bounced around and put on hold and gave up. I've literally used the phrase "give me a holler" at my phone number and received calls back the next morning. If they want to get their money they can reach out to me. I just won't pay any part of the bill until the issue is resolved. And I am definitely not going to waste my time on hold.

SilasX 8y ago

Could you please indicate which parts of this are quoting the article? I've seen these exact paragraphs elsewhere in the discussion.