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I actually found the most interesting part of the article towards the end: Joel's really upset that MSFT and GOOG are picking up all the top CS grads, despite

I actually found the most interesting part of the article towards the end: Joel's really upset that MSFT and GOOG are picking up all the top CS grads, despite Joel's great internships and Aeron chairs. And, he's also upset that the starting salary for a CS grad is now pushing 6 figures. I'd actually wager that the true cream of the crop is primarily interested in starting their own companies and cashing out early. It's the second tier that are interested in working for MSFT and GOOG. And then, the rest of the companies are fighting for scraps. I could be wrong, I'm not doing the HR thing like Joel is. And, it's only going to be a matter of time before undergrad salaries across the board start climbing. And once the press starts writing "Tech shortage. Salaries skyrocket!" there will be a lot more people going into CS as a major.

DaniFong 19y ago
In my experience (largely on the CS theory, math, and physics side of things), a large portion of the cream of the crop just wants to do research -- at least coming out of their undergrad, anyway. The numbers change fairly quickly after a few years of grad school.
edw519 19y ago
"there will be a lot more people going into CS as a major" Sadly, increasing quantity will probably have little impact on increasing quality.
- Hexstream 19y ago
  I think it will have a big, negative impact on increasing quality.
  - mariorz 19y ago
    how do you reason that?
    - Hexstream 19y ago
      I think a career in CS is already sufficiently attractive, for monetary and other considerations, that those who have a great potential and a passion for it already choose to pursue it. So if we increase salaries a lot and this results in more people going into CS, I think it's pretty safe to say most of those additional recruits will be more in it for the money and less because that's what they should pursue, thus reducing the overall quality. If programmer salaries went to 200k overnight, do you think the quality of undergrads would go up or down?
      - mariorz 19y ago
        It would obviously go up or stay the same, following your logic. Even if the proportion of good programmers out of CS programs decreases there is no reason the real total number would go down. [edit] If anything, the new influx of interested students would maybe counter a little the need for CS departments to dumb down the curriculum in order to stay above whatever arbitrary number. Maybe it would result in less JavaSchools. ;) [/edit]
        Hexstream 19y ago
        I was speaking in relative terms, not absolute. I meant the the average quality of programmers would go down.

DaniFong 19y ago

In my experience (largely on the CS theory, math, and physics side of things), a large portion of the cream of the crop just wants to do research -- at least coming out of their undergrad, anyway. The numbers change fairly quickly after a few years of grad school.

edw519 19y ago

"there will be a lot more people going into CS as a major" Sadly, increasing quantity will probably have little impact on increasing quality.

Hexstream 19y ago
I think it will have a big, negative impact on increasing quality.
- mariorz 19y ago
  how do you reason that?
  - Hexstream 19y ago
    I think a career in CS is already sufficiently attractive, for monetary and other considerations, that those who have a great potential and a passion for it already choose to pursue it. So if we increase salaries a lot and this results in more people going into CS, I think it's pretty safe to say most of those additional recruits will be more in it for the money and less because that's what they should pursue, thus reducing the overall quality. If programmer salaries went to 200k overnight, do you think the quality of undergrads would go up or down?
    - mariorz 19y ago
      It would obviously go up or stay the same, following your logic. Even if the proportion of good programmers out of CS programs decreases there is no reason the real total number would go down. [edit] If anything, the new influx of interested students would maybe counter a little the need for CS departments to dumb down the curriculum in order to stay above whatever arbitrary number. Maybe it would result in less JavaSchools. ;) [/edit]
      - Hexstream 19y ago
        I was speaking in relative terms, not absolute. I meant the the average quality of programmers would go down.