4 ms·

> What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either. Given that companies are

by jahaja 8y ago

> What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either. Given that companies are consistently and fiercely fighting off unionization should be a tip off. In any case, some examples: * Better pay and benefits. The US is miles away from Europe in this issue because of this very reason. * Not having to talk to HR when you're experiencing various problems on the job. * Having influence backed up by actual power. * Solidarity.

TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
Could you enumerate some of those benefits? I'm not seeing the "better pay" in any example I've seen online. And benefits are questionable, and rather subjective. I don't want my job to provide anything, I want them to pay me a lot of money and let me take care of my problems without becoming involved. Most "job benefits" are just bullhshit and ways to cut taxes. I don't mind talking to HR. You should always hire a lawyer if you're having any serious discussions anyway, so I don't see in what way a union would help me. If your HR department won't let you discuss something without a lawyer present, that's a clear sign you need to leave immediately. Your power is that you have an influential position within the company, and if you leave it will cause them to have to hire someone and teach them all the intricacies of your industry. This takes a lot of time and it's incredibly expensive. If an engineer is fired for a bullshit reason (i.e. I don't like em), other engineers will speak up if they think it's unjustified. I'll also make sure to publicly express my criticisms of the company so nobody within my social circle will seriously consider joining. Maybe a union makes more sense for a larger company, but so far I'm unconvinced by your points. Like I said, I'm not against unions, but I'm unclear as to what benefits I'd get for joining one.
- jahaja 8y ago
  > I'm not seeing > I don't want > I don't mind > I'll also make sure [..] within my social circle > what benefits I'd get A business usually consists of a group of employees, some may benefit more than others, clearly you may be in the others category. But maybe some of your colleagues aren't as vocal or brave as you, or maybe they can't afford to risk losing their job etc. That's solidarity, not tweeting about something after-the-fact for the benefit of your own social circle. That said, the highly skilled, strictly individual-minded person clearly have benefits to reap too. Comparing with most West-European countries, like: * 5-6 weeks of paid vacation annually. * Paid sick leave. * Months of paid parental leave.
  - bitcurious 8y ago
    >* 5-6 weeks of paid vacation annually. >* Paid sick leave. >* Months of paid parental leave. I believe these issues should be legislated rather than negotiated. I believe that is how it's done in the majority of Western Europe as well.
    - jahaja 8y ago
      That would be preferable yes.
- hatchnyc 8y ago
  I can easily imagine all manner of horrors following unionizing. I can imagine the Certified AgileTM types getting into the game and making all kinds of horrible silly rules for their benefit, wave upon wave of people who do not have a passion for software design of any sort but merely view it as a hollow vehicle to extract rent by entrenching themselves in processes. I can imagine the same sort of ridiculousness you find in every stodgy old mega company with armies of lifelong paper pushing cogs now being mandated. Perhaps as a concession they'll carve out exemptions for smaller companies. How nice of them. You already see this behavior any time there is any sort of certification or legal requirements involved it quickly gets weaponized and draws in armies of box-ticking auditors who's favorite word is no and have basically zero interest in the material facts that originally motivated their existence.

by jahaja 8y ago

TheAceOfHearts 8y ago

Could you enumerate some of those benefits? I'm not seeing the "better pay" in any example I've seen online. And benefits are questionable, and rather subjective. I don't want my job to provide anything, I want them to pay me a lot of money and let me take care of my problems without becoming involved. Most "job benefits" are just bullhshit and ways to cut taxes. I don't mind talking to HR. You should always hire a lawyer if you're having any serious discussions anyway, so I don't see in what way a union would help me. If your HR department won't let you discuss something without a lawyer present, that's a clear sign you need to leave immediately. Your power is that you have an influential position within the company, and if you leave it will cause them to have to hire someone and teach them all the intricacies of your industry. This takes a lot of time and it's incredibly expensive. If an engineer is fired for a bullshit reason (i.e. I don't like em), other engineers will speak up if they think it's unjustified. I'll also make sure to publicly express my criticisms of the company so nobody within my social circle will seriously consider joining. Maybe a union makes more sense for a larger company, but so far I'm unconvinced by your points. Like I said, I'm not against unions, but I'm unclear as to what benefits I'd get for joining one.

jahaja 8y ago
> I'm not seeing > I don't want > I don't mind > I'll also make sure [..] within my social circle > what benefits I'd get A business usually consists of a group of employees, some may benefit more than others, clearly you may be in the others category. But maybe some of your colleagues aren't as vocal or brave as you, or maybe they can't afford to risk losing their job etc. That's solidarity, not tweeting about something after-the-fact for the benefit of your own social circle. That said, the highly skilled, strictly individual-minded person clearly have benefits to reap too. Comparing with most West-European countries, like: * 5-6 weeks of paid vacation annually. * Paid sick leave. * Months of paid parental leave.
- bitcurious 8y ago
  >* 5-6 weeks of paid vacation annually. >* Paid sick leave. >* Months of paid parental leave. I believe these issues should be legislated rather than negotiated. I believe that is how it's done in the majority of Western Europe as well.
  - jahaja 8y ago
    That would be preferable yes.
hatchnyc 8y ago
I can easily imagine all manner of horrors following unionizing. I can imagine the Certified AgileTM types getting into the game and making all kinds of horrible silly rules for their benefit, wave upon wave of people who do not have a passion for software design of any sort but merely view it as a hollow vehicle to extract rent by entrenching themselves in processes. I can imagine the same sort of ridiculousness you find in every stodgy old mega company with armies of lifelong paper pushing cogs now being mandated. Perhaps as a concession they'll carve out exemptions for smaller companies. How nice of them. You already see this behavior any time there is any sort of certification or legal requirements involved it quickly gets weaponized and draws in armies of box-ticking auditors who's favorite word is no and have basically zero interest in the material facts that originally motivated their existence.