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If we gave immigrants more job mobility (notably not attaching the people to the company they work with or making the process so complicated that you need corpo

by rtpg 8y ago

If we gave immigrants more job mobility (notably not attaching the people to the company they work with or making the process so complicated that you need corporate sponsors to go through) then wages would basically be the same as for locals. Software engineering has the lowest unemployment of any major job category in the world. Beyond it being the right thing to do, making it easier for people abroad to work in the US with the same level of freedoms granted to citizens (including the “right” to get poached at a higher salary) would only help the industry and those within it Another thing: if software engineers weren’t afraid of unionizing, then companies would have a hell of a lot harder time slowly replacing you with cheaper counterparts. Demanding equal pay for equal work, no matter where your coworkers came from, attacks the core of the problem

conanbatt 8y ago
If software engineers unionized, say goodbye to foreign software engineers.
TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
Maybe I'm misreading you, but why do they have to move to the US at all? I had a few foreign coworkers that were being paid very competitive salaries while working remotely from Europe and Asia. They came to visit a couple times a year, for a few weeks at a time, and that was it. I'm happy to work with people all over the world, I don't need to see you face-to-face every day. I really enjoy seeing people a few times a year, but that's only because I genuinely like them and I enjoy spending time in meatspace with them. But I never felt like my job was impaired by having people at different time zones. If anything, it was awesome! I'd put up a PR before going to sleep and by the time I went in to work the next day it would be ready to merge. If any serious discussion had to happen, we'd just use video chat to resolve big issues. What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either.
- jahaja 8y ago
  > What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either. Given that companies are consistently and fiercely fighting off unionization should be a tip off. In any case, some examples: * Better pay and benefits. The US is miles away from Europe in this issue because of this very reason. * Not having to talk to HR when you're experiencing various problems on the job. * Having influence backed up by actual power. * Solidarity.
  - TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
    Could you enumerate some of those benefits? I'm not seeing the "better pay" in any example I've seen online. And benefits are questionable, and rather subjective. I don't want my job to provide anything, I want them to pay me a lot of money and let me take care of my problems without becoming involved. Most "job benefits" are just bullhshit and ways to cut taxes. I don't mind talking to HR. You should always hire a lawyer if you're having any serious discussions anyway, so I don't see in what way a union would help me. If your HR department won't let you discuss something without a lawyer present, that's a clear sign you need to leave immediately. Your power is that you have an influential position within the company, and if you leave it will cause them to have to hire someone and teach them all the intricacies of your industry. This takes a lot of time and it's incredibly expensive. If an engineer is fired for a bullshit reason (i.e. I don't like em), other engineers will speak up if they think it's unjustified. I'll also make sure to publicly express my criticisms of the company so nobody within my social circle will seriously consider joining. Maybe a union makes more sense for a larger company, but so far I'm unconvinced by your points. Like I said, I'm not against unions, but I'm unclear as to what benefits I'd get for joining one.
    - jahaja 8y ago
      > I'm not seeing > I don't want > I don't mind > I'll also make sure [..] within my social circle > what benefits I'd get A business usually consists of a group of employees, some may benefit more than others, clearly you may be in the others category. But maybe some of your colleagues aren't as vocal or brave as you, or maybe they can't afford to risk losing their job etc. That's solidarity, not tweeting about something after-the-fact for the benefit of your own social circle. That said, the highly skilled, strictly individual-minded person clearly have benefits to reap too. Comparing with most West-European countries, like: * 5-6 weeks of paid vacation annually. * Paid sick leave. * Months of paid parental leave.
- rtpg 8y ago
  GP was worried about problems that unionization can help to tackle, if only to counter the massive power imbalance between the owners of capital and the workers. As for remote work: I’m 100% good with that, but I also believe people shouldn’t be constrained from living in the general area they would like to if they have the means. Also , a lot of people simply don’t like remote work in the first place, and there can also be similar wage depression effects (and other political issues) that can make it a less-than-ideal situation
- mindentropy 8y ago
  > What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either. After being in Germany and also working with them I am really impressed by the union and the strong labour laws that they have. Really helps in the work life balance for them and how I really wish my country had it.
nitrogen 8y ago
Demanding equal pay for equal work, no matter where your coworkers came from, attacks the core of the problem One of the things that makes this difficult for software is that there's not a clear way of defining "equal work". Every company has its own leveling system that may or may not reflect the actual value of the work being performed, and sometimes employees justifiably exceed their designated level's salary.

by rtpg 8y ago

conanbatt 8y ago

If software engineers unionized, say goodbye to foreign software engineers.

TheAceOfHearts 8y ago

Maybe I'm misreading you, but why do they have to move to the US at all? I had a few foreign coworkers that were being paid very competitive salaries while working remotely from Europe and Asia. They came to visit a couple times a year, for a few weeks at a time, and that was it. I'm happy to work with people all over the world, I don't need to see you face-to-face every day. I really enjoy seeing people a few times a year, but that's only because I genuinely like them and I enjoy spending time in meatspace with them. But I never felt like my job was impaired by having people at different time zones. If anything, it was awesome! I'd put up a PR before going to sleep and by the time I went in to work the next day it would be ready to merge. If any serious discussion had to happen, we'd just use video chat to resolve big issues. What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either.

jahaja 8y ago
> What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either. Given that companies are consistently and fiercely fighting off unionization should be a tip off. In any case, some examples: * Better pay and benefits. The US is miles away from Europe in this issue because of this very reason. * Not having to talk to HR when you're experiencing various problems on the job. * Having influence backed up by actual power. * Solidarity.
- TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
  Could you enumerate some of those benefits? I'm not seeing the "better pay" in any example I've seen online. And benefits are questionable, and rather subjective. I don't want my job to provide anything, I want them to pay me a lot of money and let me take care of my problems without becoming involved. Most "job benefits" are just bullhshit and ways to cut taxes. I don't mind talking to HR. You should always hire a lawyer if you're having any serious discussions anyway, so I don't see in what way a union would help me. If your HR department won't let you discuss something without a lawyer present, that's a clear sign you need to leave immediately. Your power is that you have an influential position within the company, and if you leave it will cause them to have to hire someone and teach them all the intricacies of your industry. This takes a lot of time and it's incredibly expensive. If an engineer is fired for a bullshit reason (i.e. I don't like em), other engineers will speak up if they think it's unjustified. I'll also make sure to publicly express my criticisms of the company so nobody within my social circle will seriously consider joining. Maybe a union makes more sense for a larger company, but so far I'm unconvinced by your points. Like I said, I'm not against unions, but I'm unclear as to what benefits I'd get for joining one.
  - jahaja 8y ago
    > I'm not seeing > I don't want > I don't mind > I'll also make sure [..] within my social circle > what benefits I'd get A business usually consists of a group of employees, some may benefit more than others, clearly you may be in the others category. But maybe some of your colleagues aren't as vocal or brave as you, or maybe they can't afford to risk losing their job etc. That's solidarity, not tweeting about something after-the-fact for the benefit of your own social circle. That said, the highly skilled, strictly individual-minded person clearly have benefits to reap too. Comparing with most West-European countries, like: * 5-6 weeks of paid vacation annually. * Paid sick leave. * Months of paid parental leave.
rtpg 8y ago
GP was worried about problems that unionization can help to tackle, if only to counter the massive power imbalance between the owners of capital and the workers. As for remote work: I’m 100% good with that, but I also believe people shouldn’t be constrained from living in the general area they would like to if they have the means. Also , a lot of people simply don’t like remote work in the first place, and there can also be similar wage depression effects (and other political issues) that can make it a less-than-ideal situation
mindentropy 8y ago
> What benefits would unionizing provide? I'm not actively against it, but I don't see any clear reasons to be in favor of it either. After being in Germany and also working with them I am really impressed by the union and the strong labour laws that they have. Really helps in the work life balance for them and how I really wish my country had it.

nitrogen 8y ago

Demanding equal pay for equal work, no matter where your coworkers came from, attacks the core of the problem One of the things that makes this difficult for software is that there's not a clear way of defining "equal work". Every company has its own leveling system that may or may not reflect the actual value of the work being performed, and sometimes employees justifiably exceed their designated level's salary.