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> The context for this argument is that joining a profitable business carries less risk of being deceived / manipulated and waking up after 4+ years to a realit

> The context for this argument is that joining a profitable business carries less risk of being deceived / manipulated and waking up after 4+ years to a reality that is totally different than what you were repeatedly lectured to expect. > Your response doesn't really refute or address that argument. You are claiming that in the theoretical case that you are given 100% valid information and 0% hype, you should be able to to get a more accurate profit expectation. That's, of course, true. You need to put yourself in a position where being deceived is fraud. If they show you fake revenue numbers that's fraud. If you don't understand that the real revenue numbers they are giving you aren't good enough, that's not fraud. If they don't tell you every single thing about the business that's not fraud. If they tell you they expect the business to do really well and it doesn't, that's not fraud. Ask the questions you need to get a feel for if the risk is worth it to you and take an educated risk. If they don't give you enough information run. How much the employer hypes the position doesn't even come into the equation. I don't really understand why you think it's an important thing. Hype is not part of the deal. The numbers and the structure of the agreement are. Of course the CEO is excited about his company why else would he be risking so much to start it? Stop paying attention to emotions and start paying attention to the documents you are signing and the deals you are making. > What Skype (technically, SLP) did was obviously legal, but extremely shady, and a good example of a savvy business tricking naive engineers. This wasn't innocent: these options that could (and eventually did) amount to millions of dollars were dangled in front of the employees noses since they were mere candidates. And all this time, they were actually worthless. Again, why are you letting these engineers off the hook for not reading or understanding documents they signed that said in really big letters SIGN HERE IF YOU UNDERSTAND THIS. I can't imagine anything less misleading than spelling out your exact intent in legalese and then following through with it. Engineers chose to pay attention to the cheer leaders instead of the lawyers to their detriment. Why would employees expect Skype lawyers and managers to be on their team? > Now I'm curious: which are these employers, in your opinion? Cap table access is rare though I've gotten it a few times, and high level numbers about the cap table are not (# shares, %owned be investors etc.), revenue numbers are widely available, projections are widely available, I dunno man these aren't huge things for early stage employees to ask for, I think most people just usually don't.

dunpeal 8y ago
> You need to put yourself in a position where being deceived is fraud. > > How much the employer hypes the position doesn't even come into the equation. I don't really understand why you think it's an important thing. Hype is not part of the deal. The numbers and the structure of the agreement are. Again, what you're arguing here is like "The used car industry isn't shady at all. All you have to do is spend a couple of months learning to evaluate used cars, maybe a couple more to learn the relevant law and know what the salesperson can't legally lie about, then you'll probably be almost as good at detecting the real value of the used car as the people whose full time job is to hide and inflate it!". Yes, in theory if all fresh grads took a full semester of financial literacy, startup equity models, and US securities law, they'd stand a chance against the savvy business folk greeting them at the door. In practice, it's not happening, so it's simply unrealistic to expect that, level of knowledge from a fresh grad. What's actually happening is that they do get manipulated (yes, not illegally so, typically) and then a few years later, they find out, and become bitter and come to post at HN about it. > Again, why are you letting these engineers off the hook for not reading or understanding documents they signed that said in really big letters SIGN HERE IF YOU UNDERSTAND THIS. I'm judging them by realistic standards, you're judging them by unrealistic standards. From what I recall of reading that clause at the time, it was near incomprehensible unless you knew both legalese and exactly how equity works. If they got a decent lawyer to review the contract for them, he'd probably catch it, but how many fresh grads spend the time and money to find a good lawyer for their first job? I think you're being too demanding of naive fresh grads, and surprisingly forgiving of savvy businesses that are out to manipulate them with fine print in what would normally be a standard contract. > I dunno man these aren't huge things for early stage employees to ask for, I think most people just usually don't. Right, that's the reality I'm talking about, in which most employees are naive fresh grads. They hear some really attractive numbers from the founders, and they don't know anything about equity and how it works, legally or financially. That's the reality we're dealing with here. Yes, I agree, these engineers could do more to protect themselves. Reality is, though, they don't. It's not completely crazy that they don't - learning all this stuff takes time and effort, and engineers aren't primarily interested in finance or US security law. This general lack of knowledge also creates an environment in which more savvy people are at a disadvantage. For example, I obviously know to ask for the necessary data to evaluate my equity. Typical scenario I encountered, including in the last time I interviewed with startups: They don't tell you anything you need to know. "You'll get X shares, which we estimate to be worth roughly a gazillion dollars when we exit, since we'll be taking over a bajillion dollar market." That really is all you'll typically hear in the pitch talks. Seems like the vast majority of engineers never ask. So now when I ask for more information, I'm the odd one out. I got weird stares just for asking about the total size of the equity pool (!). It's not pretty, and theoretically wrong, yet that's how the industry operates. It's been over a decade now, and these practices have become standard: giving employees no information, systematically hyping them with unrealistic valuations, and when it all blows up, their inflated fantasies collapse, but by then, they've served their purpose, so nobody cares.

dunpeal 8y ago

> You need to put yourself in a position where being deceived is fraud. > > How much the employer hypes the position doesn't even come into the equation. I don't really understand why you think it's an important thing. Hype is not part of the deal. The numbers and the structure of the agreement are. Again, what you're arguing here is like "The used car industry isn't shady at all. All you have to do is spend a couple of months learning to evaluate used cars, maybe a couple more to learn the relevant law and know what the salesperson can't legally lie about, then you'll probably be almost as good at detecting the real value of the used car as the people whose full time job is to hide and inflate it!". Yes, in theory if all fresh grads took a full semester of financial literacy, startup equity models, and US securities law, they'd stand a chance against the savvy business folk greeting them at the door. In practice, it's not happening, so it's simply unrealistic to expect that, level of knowledge from a fresh grad. What's actually happening is that they do get manipulated (yes, not illegally so, typically) and then a few years later, they find out, and become bitter and come to post at HN about it. > Again, why are you letting these engineers off the hook for not reading or understanding documents they signed that said in really big letters SIGN HERE IF YOU UNDERSTAND THIS. I'm judging them by realistic standards, you're judging them by unrealistic standards. From what I recall of reading that clause at the time, it was near incomprehensible unless you knew both legalese and exactly how equity works. If they got a decent lawyer to review the contract for them, he'd probably catch it, but how many fresh grads spend the time and money to find a good lawyer for their first job? I think you're being too demanding of naive fresh grads, and surprisingly forgiving of savvy businesses that are out to manipulate them with fine print in what would normally be a standard contract. > I dunno man these aren't huge things for early stage employees to ask for, I think most people just usually don't. Right, that's the reality I'm talking about, in which most employees are naive fresh grads. They hear some really attractive numbers from the founders, and they don't know anything about equity and how it works, legally or financially. That's the reality we're dealing with here. Yes, I agree, these engineers could do more to protect themselves. Reality is, though, they don't. It's not completely crazy that they don't - learning all this stuff takes time and effort, and engineers aren't primarily interested in finance or US security law. This general lack of knowledge also creates an environment in which more savvy people are at a disadvantage. For example, I obviously know to ask for the necessary data to evaluate my equity. Typical scenario I encountered, including in the last time I interviewed with startups: They don't tell you anything you need to know. "You'll get X shares, which we estimate to be worth roughly a gazillion dollars when we exit, since we'll be taking over a bajillion dollar market." That really is all you'll typically hear in the pitch talks. Seems like the vast majority of engineers never ask. So now when I ask for more information, I'm the odd one out. I got weird stares just for asking about the total size of the equity pool (!). It's not pretty, and theoretically wrong, yet that's how the industry operates. It's been over a decade now, and these practices have become standard: giving employees no information, systematically hyping them with unrealistic valuations, and when it all blows up, their inflated fantasies collapse, but by then, they've served their purpose, so nobody cares.