3 ms·

so DRM is OK as long as it's enclosed within a standardised protocol?

detaro 8y ago
EME is the better option if you believe DRM is going to happen one way or the other: it can be contained and ideally used cross-platform, not just on blessed end-devices. EME is bad if you believe DRM would die/be less common if no standard existed.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  from an economic perspective, I'd rather DRM be as expensive to utilise as possible. A world where media conglomerates have to spend money keeping their DRM up-to-date on every new end-user device is one where they may be more likely to think about the cost/benefit of alternative options.
  - davrosthedalek 8y ago
    They will only keep it up-to-date on those with enough market share. No Linux. Maybe Mac. For the slightly smaller players, on mobile, maybe only Iphone, or Iphone + Flagship Android.
    - beaconstudios 8y ago
      which when added up provides a viable market segment for a company that does not insist on DRM. Especially as the mobile device market continues to fragment.
      - pas 8y ago
        Mozilla decided that providing this feature serves their users better than not providing it. Especially that users can turn it off. ( https://mat.tl/disable-eme-in-chrome-and-firefox.html https://mat.tl/disable-eme-in-chrome-and-firefox.html ) Firefox was forced by Chrome, and Chrome in turn was probably forced by trying to remain a viable platform instead of Netflix et al. simply providing their own desktop apps. (Though I'm only guessing, if you have direct knowledge of the what and why, please do share.)
        wolfgke 8y ago
        > Firefox was forced by Chrome, and Chrome in turn was probably forced by trying to remain a viable platform instead of Netflix et al. simply providing their own desktop apps. The kind of users who are not opposed against DRM already have lots of browsers to choose between. On the other hand, people who are will now feel deeply betrayed by the Mozilla Foundation.
        icebraining 8y ago
        And then there are people like me, who are opposed to DRM, yet don't feel betrayed. If you're opposed to a browser that can be used by DRM modules, Firefox was already not an option, since it supported NPAPI, and therefore DRM as Flash, Silverlight, etc. If you were using Firefox, you were already accepting that compromise. EME is simply a continuation of the status quo.
        pas 8y ago
        > will now feel deeply betrayed by the Mozilla Foundation. Was there an explicit or implicit covenant by Mozilla and those users?
        wolfgke 8y ago
        > Was there an explicit or implicit covenant by Mozilla and those users? I believe Mozilla's clear stance on DRM in the past (and its clear differentiation against other browser vendors in this respect) is near to such an implicit covenant.
      - shawnz 8y ago
        Why would the producers of the content choose to license it to DRM-free delivery services though? Unless you are suggesting that Desktop Linux users are a viable market segment for triple-A content producers themselves, which I doubt.
        beaconstudios 8y ago
        I don't know the answer to that, but it's a market that startups could potentially capitalise on. It would also not just be desktop linux users, but anyone not using the top N web clients (where N is chosen by said media provider to provide the best cost/benefit to maintaining the DRM on those platforms).
    - spacehome 8y ago
      Meh. They can do what they want, but that was the end of my donations to Firefox.
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > EME is the better option if you believe DRM is going to happen one way or the other Waterboarding is the better option if you believe that torture is going to happen one way or the other.
  - shawnz 8y ago
    That analogy doesn't work because the people doing the waterboarding have the power to choose not to use torture in the first place. Whereas the W3C can't choose for content producers to not use DRM--they will do it regardless.
    - wolfgke 8y ago
      > That analogy doesn't work because the people doing the waterboarding have the power to choose not to use torture in the first place. The Hollywood studios also have the power not to enforce having to use DRM on their licensees.
      - icebraining 8y ago
        Right, but nobody is defending them.
- Daiz 8y ago
  >ideally used cross-platform, not just on blessed end-devices. Tough luck with that though since EME only specifies how to communicate with DRM, and the actual DRM consists of multiple 100% proprietary black boxes that only work on blessed end devices and browsers. And since different browsers have different black boxes, you need to play ball with Apple, Google, Microsoft, and every other unique DRM vendor. EME is a disgrace that should have never come to pass. Premium media should rather be forced to peddle their own clients entirely separate from browsers if they insist on non-cross-platform black box bullshit. I'm not against content protection in itself, but EME was 100% marketed on false pretenses because it's just as much of a proprietary plugin system than what came before, with just as terrible cross-platform story too. If instead we had content protection schemes implemented in eg. WebAssembly, then we could actually talk about a cross-platform system that also doesn't immediately close out smaller browser vendors from the market.

EME is the better option if you believe DRM is going to happen one way or the other: it can be contained and ideally used cross-platform, not just on blessed end-devices. EME is bad if you believe DRM would die/be less common if no standard existed.

beaconstudios 8y ago
from an economic perspective, I'd rather DRM be as expensive to utilise as possible. A world where media conglomerates have to spend money keeping their DRM up-to-date on every new end-user device is one where they may be more likely to think about the cost/benefit of alternative options.
- davrosthedalek 8y ago
  They will only keep it up-to-date on those with enough market share. No Linux. Maybe Mac. For the slightly smaller players, on mobile, maybe only Iphone, or Iphone + Flagship Android.
  - beaconstudios 8y ago
    which when added up provides a viable market segment for a company that does not insist on DRM. Especially as the mobile device market continues to fragment.
    - pas 8y ago
      Mozilla decided that providing this feature serves their users better than not providing it. Especially that users can turn it off. ( https://mat.tl/disable-eme-in-chrome-and-firefox.html https://mat.tl/disable-eme-in-chrome-and-firefox.html ) Firefox was forced by Chrome, and Chrome in turn was probably forced by trying to remain a viable platform instead of Netflix et al. simply providing their own desktop apps. (Though I'm only guessing, if you have direct knowledge of the what and why, please do share.)
      - wolfgke 8y ago
        > Firefox was forced by Chrome, and Chrome in turn was probably forced by trying to remain a viable platform instead of Netflix et al. simply providing their own desktop apps. The kind of users who are not opposed against DRM already have lots of browsers to choose between. On the other hand, people who are will now feel deeply betrayed by the Mozilla Foundation.
        icebraining 8y ago
        And then there are people like me, who are opposed to DRM, yet don't feel betrayed. If you're opposed to a browser that can be used by DRM modules, Firefox was already not an option, since it supported NPAPI, and therefore DRM as Flash, Silverlight, etc. If you were using Firefox, you were already accepting that compromise. EME is simply a continuation of the status quo.
        pas 8y ago
        > will now feel deeply betrayed by the Mozilla Foundation. Was there an explicit or implicit covenant by Mozilla and those users?
        wolfgke 8y ago
        > Was there an explicit or implicit covenant by Mozilla and those users? I believe Mozilla's clear stance on DRM in the past (and its clear differentiation against other browser vendors in this respect) is near to such an implicit covenant.
    - shawnz 8y ago
      Why would the producers of the content choose to license it to DRM-free delivery services though? Unless you are suggesting that Desktop Linux users are a viable market segment for triple-A content producers themselves, which I doubt.
      - beaconstudios 8y ago
        I don't know the answer to that, but it's a market that startups could potentially capitalise on. It would also not just be desktop linux users, but anyone not using the top N web clients (where N is chosen by said media provider to provide the best cost/benefit to maintaining the DRM on those platforms).
  - spacehome 8y ago
    Meh. They can do what they want, but that was the end of my donations to Firefox.
wolfgke 8y ago
> EME is the better option if you believe DRM is going to happen one way or the other Waterboarding is the better option if you believe that torture is going to happen one way or the other.
- shawnz 8y ago
  That analogy doesn't work because the people doing the waterboarding have the power to choose not to use torture in the first place. Whereas the W3C can't choose for content producers to not use DRM--they will do it regardless.
  - wolfgke 8y ago
    > That analogy doesn't work because the people doing the waterboarding have the power to choose not to use torture in the first place. The Hollywood studios also have the power not to enforce having to use DRM on their licensees.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      Right, but nobody is defending them.
Daiz 8y ago
>ideally used cross-platform, not just on blessed end-devices. Tough luck with that though since EME only specifies how to communicate with DRM, and the actual DRM consists of multiple 100% proprietary black boxes that only work on blessed end devices and browsers. And since different browsers have different black boxes, you need to play ball with Apple, Google, Microsoft, and every other unique DRM vendor. EME is a disgrace that should have never come to pass. Premium media should rather be forced to peddle their own clients entirely separate from browsers if they insist on non-cross-platform black box bullshit. I'm not against content protection in itself, but EME was 100% marketed on false pretenses because it's just as much of a proprietary plugin system than what came before, with just as terrible cross-platform story too. If instead we had content protection schemes implemented in eg. WebAssembly, then we could actually talk about a cross-platform system that also doesn't immediately close out smaller browser vendors from the market.