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My girlfriend, whose worked in the service industry for the last 5 years, would vehemently disagree with you. If she doesn't get at least 20%, it's more or less

My girlfriend, whose worked in the service industry for the last 5 years, would vehemently disagree with you. If she doesn't get at least 20%, it's more or less an offensive amount _because_ they get paid so little because of this law. That's baseline. Before I met her, I assumed 10% was a perfectly acceptable tip but I had never really had any friends who worked in the service industry or worked there myself, so I had no idea how little they actually make. For a typical slow shift, a bartender/server can make $20 or less...and this is in NYC.

danaris 8y ago
OK...but that's not an obvious thing to those of us on the outside. Particularly for those of us who grew up in a world where 15% was considered a good tip, and then start vaguely hearing from random sources that maybe it's supposed to be 18% now? When did that happen, and why? There is no way for people not in that position to know what will be an "offensive" amount. I get that it's not a simple thing to "just find a job that pays a decent amount," but...unless we can get the law changed to require reasonable minimum wages for everyone, that's really the only way this sort of abuse will be stopped. And that's what it is: abuse. If she's getting paid so little that she requires every single table she serves to pay an extra 1/5 of their meal price directly to her or she's in danger of not being able to make ends meet, that's on her employer. Continuing to increase the amount we all tip just allows abusive employers like hers to continue to freeload off of all of us, and not even have to shoulder the burden of being the one taking the economic or emotional/social risk of asking for more money, because they force the servers into that position instead.
- halfmatthalfcat 8y ago
  Putting it on the employer is lazy. The employer has to stay competitive, especially in competitive markets like NYC. They're playing on the same playing field as all the others in the same industry, which means paying employees shitty wages because the government allows it to be so. Having ethics to pay your employees livable wages will help you sleep at night but it won't help you maintain a business.
  - lotophage 8y ago
    As someone who grew up outside the US, I sill find this attitude really bizarre. In Australia, if you can't afford to pay your employees a livable wage, then you are not a businessperson, you are a thief. You are taking money that your employees earned and putting it in your own pocket. If you can't afford to be profitable otherwise, then you shouldn't be in business. Why is it the general public's responsibility to pay your employees salaries? Saying it's not possible to stay competitive is a complete cop out. Zazie in SF has been around for more than 25 years if you need an example of a restaurant with sustainable business model that treats its employees fairly and doesn't expect their customers to tip.
    - halfmatthalfcat 8y ago
      You're suggesting one out of tens of thousands of restaurants in the US. I don't need one example, I need an overwhelming body of evidence that paying your employees a livable wage means you can stay competitive. I'm talking specifically about the service food industry of which this thread is addressing specifically. I don't know what the laws in AUS are but in the US, you can pay your employees, BY LAW[1], around $2/hr because tips are considered supplementary to that. I'm not stating anything new here, this is just how it is. I don't like it any more then you do but that is the world we live in and laws that make it possible to pay people below what we consider a livable wage need to be repelled. [1] https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm
      - A2017U1 8y ago
        There's no minimum wage in Sweden and waitstaff there earn good money, the hospitality average would be about $4000 USD monthly. By law you can pay your staff 10 cents an hour but no one does because that's absurd exploitation of another human being that would be considered socially unacceptable and no one would eat in your restaurant. The fact that this is so normalised in the states is concerning. I agree with the other comment that if you can't run a business and pay staff a living wage you aren't good at business. People working full time yet living below the poverty line is the sign of a dysfunctional society. Needing laws to force you into treating others with decency obviously isn't a shared experience across the developed world. https://jobseurope.net/average-salaries-sweden/ https://jobseurope.net/average-salaries-sweden/

danaris 8y ago

OK...but that's not an obvious thing to those of us on the outside. Particularly for those of us who grew up in a world where 15% was considered a good tip, and then start vaguely hearing from random sources that maybe it's supposed to be 18% now? When did that happen, and why? There is no way for people not in that position to know what will be an "offensive" amount. I get that it's not a simple thing to "just find a job that pays a decent amount," but...unless we can get the law changed to require reasonable minimum wages for everyone, that's really the only way this sort of abuse will be stopped. And that's what it is: abuse. If she's getting paid so little that she requires every single table she serves to pay an extra 1/5 of their meal price directly to her or she's in danger of not being able to make ends meet, that's on her employer. Continuing to increase the amount we all tip just allows abusive employers like hers to continue to freeload off of all of us, and not even have to shoulder the burden of being the one taking the economic or emotional/social risk of asking for more money, because they force the servers into that position instead.

halfmatthalfcat 8y ago
Putting it on the employer is lazy. The employer has to stay competitive, especially in competitive markets like NYC. They're playing on the same playing field as all the others in the same industry, which means paying employees shitty wages because the government allows it to be so. Having ethics to pay your employees livable wages will help you sleep at night but it won't help you maintain a business.
- lotophage 8y ago
  As someone who grew up outside the US, I sill find this attitude really bizarre. In Australia, if you can't afford to pay your employees a livable wage, then you are not a businessperson, you are a thief. You are taking money that your employees earned and putting it in your own pocket. If you can't afford to be profitable otherwise, then you shouldn't be in business. Why is it the general public's responsibility to pay your employees salaries? Saying it's not possible to stay competitive is a complete cop out. Zazie in SF has been around for more than 25 years if you need an example of a restaurant with sustainable business model that treats its employees fairly and doesn't expect their customers to tip.
  - halfmatthalfcat 8y ago
    You're suggesting one out of tens of thousands of restaurants in the US. I don't need one example, I need an overwhelming body of evidence that paying your employees a livable wage means you can stay competitive. I'm talking specifically about the service food industry of which this thread is addressing specifically. I don't know what the laws in AUS are but in the US, you can pay your employees, BY LAW[1], around $2/hr because tips are considered supplementary to that. I'm not stating anything new here, this is just how it is. I don't like it any more then you do but that is the world we live in and laws that make it possible to pay people below what we consider a livable wage need to be repelled. [1] https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm
    - A2017U1 8y ago
      There's no minimum wage in Sweden and waitstaff there earn good money, the hospitality average would be about $4000 USD monthly. By law you can pay your staff 10 cents an hour but no one does because that's absurd exploitation of another human being that would be considered socially unacceptable and no one would eat in your restaurant. The fact that this is so normalised in the states is concerning. I agree with the other comment that if you can't run a business and pay staff a living wage you aren't good at business. People working full time yet living below the poverty line is the sign of a dysfunctional society. Needing laws to force you into treating others with decency obviously isn't a shared experience across the developed world. https://jobseurope.net/average-salaries-sweden/ https://jobseurope.net/average-salaries-sweden/