5 ms·

How to Design for the Modern Web

42 points by caspervonb 8y ago

thomasedwards 8y ago
It’s so frustrating as a web developer because you know that it doesn’t have to be this way. Friends that don’t work in web moan about how annoying the web, but you know that it doesn’t have to be annoying. It can be good.
narrowtux 8y ago
Does anybody actually think that developers build these kind of "features" without a huge amount of self-loathing? They _know_ it's going to ruin the experience but they have to do it because someone above them said so. I also really hate how the article takes these obviously _good_ examples of dark patterns and makes web developers feel bad for being web developers, just because some web developers are made to employ these dark patterns.
- gizmo 8y ago
  It's not just "some" web developers. It's absolutely everywhere. Developers can just refuse to build awful websites that are user-hostile and violate privacy. We're highly paid professionals. We can just say "no."
  - dageshi 8y ago
    The people who use those websites won't pay for them. If given the choice between a paid website that offers some information/service and a privacy invading, popup spewing site that's free but has what people want, 99%+ will choose the latter every time. So people pay in inconvenience/annoying experience instead of actual money, we are after all using sites that presumably offer us some value and expecting to get it all for free, but every site, every page cost some about of money to be built and a majority of people who built them will want to recoup that cost somehow... So I am frankly quite happy to build most of these features, they are how people actually earn a living from their sites.
    - gizmo 8y ago
      People don't know the extent to which their privacy is being invaded. People don't know what kind of deal they're making; there is no informed consent. The presumption that a website must offer value otherwise it wouldn't have any visitors, is false. Some websites just make people unhappy and anxious, but they are addictive (and engineered to be addictive) so people keep coming back regardless. There are no rational consumers, and if you design the web (or society at large) under the presumption that people are perfectly rational you end up with a sad dystopia. Content is being produced at such a rate that there is absolutely no reason to be concerned that crummy websites that use unethical practices go out of business. Good riddance, I'd say.
- sAbakumoff 8y ago
  You don't have to feel bad about being web developer.Pecunia non olet.
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    Only some money doesn't smell. Depends how many grubby fingerprints are on it.
    - sAbakumoff 8y ago
      I don't know about you, but I can't remember last time when I used actual banknotes. My Maestro card does not smell at all, nor do the money that I receive for being front-end developer.
- scarygliders 8y ago
  Maybe this is an age or generational thing, but I, at 49 years of age, tell my customers that if they want <thing which is guaranteed to annoy site users>, then I'm usually quite blunt and tell them they really, really should think again, as annoying their existing and potential customers isn't a good thing. Like I say - perhaps it's a generational thing, perhaps it's just me, but I'm not going to just passively go and do something which is going to make me feel bitter and resentful. Seriously, try it. Be honest and straighforward with the people you are doing work for and tell them that <annoying web thing> is probably going to be detrimental to the users of their site - and detrimental to the numbers of users of their site. In my experience, the people you are doing the web work for appreciate honestly felt, straightforward, blunt opinion and advice - and the ones who don't appreciate it aren't worth becoming bitter, self-loathing, and resentful for. The very fact that one might start to feel bitter, self-loathing, and resentful, is your mind's way of saying to you "now hang on a moment, you know doing these things is wrong - you need to reconsider". If more developers started to give some good, honest, and blunt feedback on these dark patterns to the people who desire them to be included in their sites, then that would in my opinion go a long way towards these dark patterns being used less - although that probably won't stop the more cynical site owners because they'd be more inclined to cynically use dark patterns anyway, but hey at least you tried and also you might wish to reconsider doing work for them in the first place, in favour of better clients.
  - EZ-E 8y ago
    In a lot of companies that would just lead the product manager to go "uh... okay... just lemme know when you finished the task" unfortunately
  - thdxr 8y ago
    Being able to be honest and give good advice is a luxury of having plentiful work options. I wasn't able to truly tell clients what I thought until a few years into my consulting career
  - narrowtux 8y ago
    I've been lucky enough not to be asked to implement stuff like this, but I also don't work at a B2C business. Maybe that's the secret. I've reached out to many sites though that what they're doing is distracting and annoying but the only response I've ever gotten to that was that they would hire and I could do it better. Yeah right, as if they'd let me remove all the popups.
- boomlinde 8y ago
  > Does anybody actually think that developers build these kind of "features" without a huge amount of self-loathing? They _know_ it's going to ruin the experience but they have to do it because someone above them said so. That it can't be chalked up to ignorance seems even more damning to me. If your work necessarily causes "a huge amount of self-loathing" maybe look for another job? I currently work as a web developer for the first time in my career and thankfully no one tells me to do any of these things. > I also really hate how the article takes these obviously _good_ examples of dark patterns and makes web developers feel bad for being web developers, just because some web developers are made to employ these dark patterns. I don't feel bad reading this, and I don't feel that the article was made for me to feel bad about being a web developer. It's also not only a matter of web developers being told by their superiors to make their sites shit. I've seen plenty of 1-man business websites that throw up huge modals after 30 seconds asking me to subscribe to their newsletter. Plenty of them throwing social media buttons at me, practically begging for me to share it somewhere.
kawsper 8y ago
Posted on Medium :)
- HelloNurse 8y ago
  Recognizing there is a problem and having the means to deal with it are two very different things. Medium is worse than a proper personal website, but better than nothing.
- caspervonb 8y ago
  Intentional irony ;)
nottorp 8y ago
Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1174/ https://xkcd.com/1174/
AznHisoka 8y ago
I wouldnt mind using Reddits mobile app if actually supported native browser features like searching for a specific keyword in a page.
- narrowtux 8y ago
  The good thing about reddit is that it has a good API, allowing for 3rd party clients. There are a couple great ones for both iOS and ANDROID.
fgheorghe 8y ago
"European’s" - another thing to include in the new design is grammar issues.

42 points by caspervonb 8y ago

It’s so frustrating as a web developer because you know that it doesn’t have to be this way. Friends that don’t work in web moan about how annoying the web, but you know that it doesn’t have to be annoying. It can be good.

narrowtux 8y ago

Does anybody actually think that developers build these kind of "features" without a huge amount of self-loathing? They _know_ it's going to ruin the experience but they have to do it because someone above them said so. I also really hate how the article takes these obviously _good_ examples of dark patterns and makes web developers feel bad for being web developers, just because some web developers are made to employ these dark patterns.

gizmo 8y ago
It's not just "some" web developers. It's absolutely everywhere. Developers can just refuse to build awful websites that are user-hostile and violate privacy. We're highly paid professionals. We can just say "no."
- dageshi 8y ago
  The people who use those websites won't pay for them. If given the choice between a paid website that offers some information/service and a privacy invading, popup spewing site that's free but has what people want, 99%+ will choose the latter every time. So people pay in inconvenience/annoying experience instead of actual money, we are after all using sites that presumably offer us some value and expecting to get it all for free, but every site, every page cost some about of money to be built and a majority of people who built them will want to recoup that cost somehow... So I am frankly quite happy to build most of these features, they are how people actually earn a living from their sites.
  - gizmo 8y ago
    People don't know the extent to which their privacy is being invaded. People don't know what kind of deal they're making; there is no informed consent. The presumption that a website must offer value otherwise it wouldn't have any visitors, is false. Some websites just make people unhappy and anxious, but they are addictive (and engineered to be addictive) so people keep coming back regardless. There are no rational consumers, and if you design the web (or society at large) under the presumption that people are perfectly rational you end up with a sad dystopia. Content is being produced at such a rate that there is absolutely no reason to be concerned that crummy websites that use unethical practices go out of business. Good riddance, I'd say.
sAbakumoff 8y ago
You don't have to feel bad about being web developer.Pecunia non olet.
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  Only some money doesn't smell. Depends how many grubby fingerprints are on it.
  - sAbakumoff 8y ago
    I don't know about you, but I can't remember last time when I used actual banknotes. My Maestro card does not smell at all, nor do the money that I receive for being front-end developer.
scarygliders 8y ago
Maybe this is an age or generational thing, but I, at 49 years of age, tell my customers that if they want <thing which is guaranteed to annoy site users>, then I'm usually quite blunt and tell them they really, really should think again, as annoying their existing and potential customers isn't a good thing. Like I say - perhaps it's a generational thing, perhaps it's just me, but I'm not going to just passively go and do something which is going to make me feel bitter and resentful. Seriously, try it. Be honest and straighforward with the people you are doing work for and tell them that <annoying web thing> is probably going to be detrimental to the users of their site - and detrimental to the numbers of users of their site. In my experience, the people you are doing the web work for appreciate honestly felt, straightforward, blunt opinion and advice - and the ones who don't appreciate it aren't worth becoming bitter, self-loathing, and resentful for. The very fact that one might start to feel bitter, self-loathing, and resentful, is your mind's way of saying to you "now hang on a moment, you know doing these things is wrong - you need to reconsider". If more developers started to give some good, honest, and blunt feedback on these dark patterns to the people who desire them to be included in their sites, then that would in my opinion go a long way towards these dark patterns being used less - although that probably won't stop the more cynical site owners because they'd be more inclined to cynically use dark patterns anyway, but hey at least you tried and also you might wish to reconsider doing work for them in the first place, in favour of better clients.
- EZ-E 8y ago
  In a lot of companies that would just lead the product manager to go "uh... okay... just lemme know when you finished the task" unfortunately
- thdxr 8y ago
  Being able to be honest and give good advice is a luxury of having plentiful work options. I wasn't able to truly tell clients what I thought until a few years into my consulting career
- narrowtux 8y ago
  I've been lucky enough not to be asked to implement stuff like this, but I also don't work at a B2C business. Maybe that's the secret. I've reached out to many sites though that what they're doing is distracting and annoying but the only response I've ever gotten to that was that they would hire and I could do it better. Yeah right, as if they'd let me remove all the popups.
boomlinde 8y ago
> Does anybody actually think that developers build these kind of "features" without a huge amount of self-loathing? They _know_ it's going to ruin the experience but they have to do it because someone above them said so. That it can't be chalked up to ignorance seems even more damning to me. If your work necessarily causes "a huge amount of self-loathing" maybe look for another job? I currently work as a web developer for the first time in my career and thankfully no one tells me to do any of these things. > I also really hate how the article takes these obviously _good_ examples of dark patterns and makes web developers feel bad for being web developers, just because some web developers are made to employ these dark patterns. I don't feel bad reading this, and I don't feel that the article was made for me to feel bad about being a web developer. It's also not only a matter of web developers being told by their superiors to make their sites shit. I've seen plenty of 1-man business websites that throw up huge modals after 30 seconds asking me to subscribe to their newsletter. Plenty of them throwing social media buttons at me, practically begging for me to share it somewhere.

kawsper 8y ago

Posted on Medium :)

HelloNurse 8y ago
Recognizing there is a problem and having the means to deal with it are two very different things. Medium is worse than a proper personal website, but better than nothing.
caspervonb 8y ago
Intentional irony ;)

nottorp 8y ago

Obligatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1174/ https://xkcd.com/1174/

AznHisoka 8y ago

I wouldnt mind using Reddits mobile app if actually supported native browser features like searching for a specific keyword in a page.

narrowtux 8y ago
The good thing about reddit is that it has a good API, allowing for 3rd party clients. There are a couple great ones for both iOS and ANDROID.

fgheorghe 8y ago

"European’s" - another thing to include in the new design is grammar issues.