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As someone who left India for the US, this article gives me pause as to whether things have actually changed in shining New India or if it's just a facade with

As someone who left India for the US, this article gives me pause as to whether things have actually changed in shining New India or if it's just a facade with air conditioning. More specifically, I'd like to move back at some point and I'm not sure if I ever should.

sn41 8y ago
Nothing has changed. The govt. has gotten better at media manipulation, and/or the media has decided it is easier to get into bed with the govt. Reliance Jio Institute has been declared an "institute of eminence" on par with IISc, and above many IITs. The industrialists hailed demonetisation. Ordinary citizens have few opportunities to enter the stock market, since it is inundated with foreign institutional investors, who may withdraw money at the drop of a hat, thus increasing volatility. There is no critical analysis allowed or taken seriously. Pre-2016, I was depressed at the turn of events. Post-Trump, Post-Brexit, I just think this is the new normal for the planet. Aggressive stupidity is the way forward. That said, money-making opportunities are present, as they always were.
- djaychela 8y ago
  > Aggressive stupidity is the way forward. Probably the most concise and accurate summary of the situation I've read. (Particularly as someone in the UK who's doesn't want to leave!)
- eahman02 8y ago
  Those who don't think the way you do are not "aggressively stupid", they just have other interests. That kind of dismissal doesn't help anybody.
  - King-Aaron 8y ago
    Personally I see it as an existential observation rather than a dismissal. On the whole, the actions of both the voting public in many countries, let alone the politicians that they vote for, do seem to be displaying an increasingly aggressive level of stupidity. Or possibly, if not stupidity, one could more accurately call it apathy.
    - eahman02 8y ago
      Think of it the other way: for some people, the public has voted very stupidly for a long time, and now they are starting to get straight.
      - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
        Or politicians are starting to deliver on their stupid promises.
      - not_kurt_godel 8y ago
        And yet those people are people whose core beliefs - or at least, the manifestation of those beliefs into policy - are, for the most part, largely objectively wrong.
- hesarenu 8y ago
  IITs attract the best students because of the opportunity it provides. But on its own is it know for it's academics? Do they carry out high calibre research?
  - sn41 8y ago
    I'd say they are better than Reliance Jio institute when it comes to high calibre research.
    - hesarenu 8y ago
      That does not say much.
      - sn41 8y ago
        Sure, you're right. My original point was to point out the hypocrisy of the government policy. But you have raised a related point about IITs. Aside from being underfunded (in comparison to global standards) there are systemic issues with IITs which make it underperform in research - first, they were designed as undergraduate institutes. The administrators constantly harangue, and block the ways of the colleagues who want to do research - for example, disallowing travel during the semester etc. More importantly, the best PG students in India do not go to the IITs. They go to IISc or abroad. It is the PG students who do most of the research in a university, not the UG students. Think of this: no teaching university in the US is a top-tier research university. When faculty systematically underperform in research over 60 years, when many of them were good researchers before they join the IITs, and many of them continue to be good researchers after they leave the IIT system, we need to rethink. Faculty must be allowed to do research 90 % of the time, travel freely, and spend very little time on teaching/administration. You can't have your legs in both the boats.
        vkerlo 8y ago
        It's to be mentioned that the Reliance Jio Institute is a proposed one and doesn't exist yet.
- heavenlyblue 8y ago
  To be fair, being from a Russian family and having re-watched quite a few news programmes from the 90s I was amazed at how liberal the media was back then. I did not expect that. It's absolutely not the case anymore, but I can definitely say that the quality of the TV production was raised significantly. Well, you know where the money goes to.
- codeisawesome 8y ago
  Please do expand on that last sentence :-) what are the general principles you see?
frozenport 8y ago
Looks like some idiots lost their parents money to a cult. Could this be understood as change for the better?
hkai 8y ago
You probably shouldn't. I'm in a similar situation and although back home there are all these fancy cafes, relaxed and familiar environments and great people, the significant differences become apparent only in crisis. When it comes to police, ambulance or just having safe food, safe streets and competent government, there's a sea of difference, although it's easy for me to sit at a Hard Rock Cafe back home and think that this place is amazing. The situation in Kerala right now illustrates this well.
- heavenlyblue 8y ago
  Isn't getting a Hard Rock Cafe just a more upscaled version of having McDonald's move in your town?
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Considering how India started 6-7 decades ago, after centuries of colonial rule and impoverishment, merely having McDonalds would be a great difference.
    - heavenlyblue 8y ago
      Yeah, but neither of these create a community where you'd want to come back. It's a sign of economical progress, but is it what makes you enjoy the life in the country?
      - oblio 8y ago
        Isn't the normal process: economic development -> social change? Economic development can happen within 5-10-15 years, while the second one usually takes 2-3 generations, so 40-60 years.
- blntechie 8y ago
  How is the situation in Kerala different from what happened in Peurto Rico or Houston?
th1nkdifferent 8y ago
I don't share the negative sentiments expressed by others in response to your question. I think things have changed significantly for the better. I'll leave you with these two images - you can decide for yourself if anything has changed: https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/india-2012.jpg https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/in... https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/india-2016.jpg https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/in... Source: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2017/new-night-lights-maps-open-up-possible-real-time-applications https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2017/new-night-lights-m... Scroll down to India's map and play with it for a while and then ask yourself whether India has changed for the better. You may not feel the difference as much as India's villagers and poor.
- coldtea 8y ago
  These two images don't answer the "if it's just a facade with air conditioning" question. This just shows that now there are more airconditioners there (well, lights). Parent was explicitly trying to differentiate between more money/technical change and different mentality.
  - iamshs 8y ago
    Neither do those images show severe lack of hamburgers. Transporting cows can and has lead to lynchings.
- danieka 8y ago
  I'm struck by the difference between India and Burma and Pakistan.
  - yorwba 8y ago
    Some cities in Pakistan actually seem to fade instead of getting brighter. I wonder why that is.
- throwaway6789 8y ago
  Looking at the comparison for Kerala, I really feel sad and worried. It doesn't look like much improved for my state during this period. And everyone likes to talk about Kerala being number one!
hiyer 8y ago
Why do you feel the US is better in this respect? The US has several other obvious advantages compared to India, but equality of wealth distribution and lack of crony capitalism don't seem to be among them.
- rayiner 8y ago
  You think the US has wealth inequality! In India its common for upper middle class people to have several full-time servents. Not only that, they are a whole separate class of people. They are treated like servents, not like employees.
- distant_hat 8y ago
  India is far more unequal than the US actually and crony capitalism is also much worse here. I've lived in the US for 8 years and would be bang in the middle class there, I have 3 full time house helps which I couldn't even think about in the US.
sandGorgon 8y ago
there's no better time to come back. Do come. Its about what you can create in the world's largest democracy. Are we the only country with constitutionally guaranteed Right to Privacy ? come and build. Oh and that goes for everyone else too. We have a lot of American, Brit and Chinese founders building successful startups in India.
- mcny 8y ago
  The difference is that the Americans, the Brits, and the Chinese can leave any time they want. I've talked to a few Indians and that tried to defend the mob that killed some guy for allegedly coming beef. More embarrassingly, they defended the police for taking a sample of the questionable meat for lab testing to check if it was beef. I can forgive the mob. Maybe things get heated and people lose their minds. They should all go to prison for life but I can forgive them once the sentences are handed. I can never forgive the police for taking a sample of the meat to check if it was beef. Democracy doesn't mean anything without rights of the minority. Not because you like Muslims. You can totally hate Muslims and still support basic decency of life for people of that faith.
  - hycaria 8y ago
    What's this story ?
    - philbarr 8y ago
      googling for "india death beef" gives you quite a few similar stories to choose from.
      - hycaria 8y ago
        Then I don't understand "I can never forgive the police for taking a sample of the meat to check if it was beef." If it's forbidden in that state, where's the problem with sampling ?
        8y ago
sbmthakur 8y ago
> More specifically, I'd like to move back at some point and I'm not sure if I ever should. Things have improved in general. But it is impossible to answer this question without knowing more about your expectations.
ataturk 8y ago
If you want things better for India (and the world) work to reduce the power of the City of London and the banker criminals therein. They are the ones who quietly rule the world and pick winners and losers.
kamaal 8y ago
>>I'd like to move back at some point and I'm not sure if I ever should. That's entirely your decision to make. But nothing much has changed in any real sense. Some highways have been built and there is slight change in infrastructure. But if your question is if some huge changes have come to pass, alas nothing significant has changed in a real sense. I had to return permanently due to my parents health, but if I really had a chance I would return to US though.
naravara 8y ago
>this article gives me pause as to whether things have actually changed in shining New India or if it's just a facade with air conditioning. In the "old" India things like this would have gone on as a matter of course. The fact that such financial crimes are publicized and prosecuted, and that large industries are being subjected to professional management instead of capricious rule by the rich scions is definitely forward progress. If anything is incentive not to move back at this point, it's the traffic, poor urban planning, and air quality. In that one respect, everything seems to be getting worse. (Communalism seems to be rearing its head in nasty ways too)
rconti 8y ago
I think another hard thing is that your expectations will change the longer you live in the US (and as things change in the US as well), so what would have been a remarkable improvement to you before might be "not enough". Then again, one would expect that India is improving far more quickly than the US.

sn41 8y ago

Nothing has changed. The govt. has gotten better at media manipulation, and/or the media has decided it is easier to get into bed with the govt. Reliance Jio Institute has been declared an "institute of eminence" on par with IISc, and above many IITs. The industrialists hailed demonetisation. Ordinary citizens have few opportunities to enter the stock market, since it is inundated with foreign institutional investors, who may withdraw money at the drop of a hat, thus increasing volatility. There is no critical analysis allowed or taken seriously. Pre-2016, I was depressed at the turn of events. Post-Trump, Post-Brexit, I just think this is the new normal for the planet. Aggressive stupidity is the way forward. That said, money-making opportunities are present, as they always were.

djaychela 8y ago
> Aggressive stupidity is the way forward. Probably the most concise and accurate summary of the situation I've read. (Particularly as someone in the UK who's doesn't want to leave!)
eahman02 8y ago
Those who don't think the way you do are not "aggressively stupid", they just have other interests. That kind of dismissal doesn't help anybody.
- King-Aaron 8y ago
  Personally I see it as an existential observation rather than a dismissal. On the whole, the actions of both the voting public in many countries, let alone the politicians that they vote for, do seem to be displaying an increasingly aggressive level of stupidity. Or possibly, if not stupidity, one could more accurately call it apathy.
  - eahman02 8y ago
    Think of it the other way: for some people, the public has voted very stupidly for a long time, and now they are starting to get straight.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      Or politicians are starting to deliver on their stupid promises.
    - not_kurt_godel 8y ago
      And yet those people are people whose core beliefs - or at least, the manifestation of those beliefs into policy - are, for the most part, largely objectively wrong.
hesarenu 8y ago
IITs attract the best students because of the opportunity it provides. But on its own is it know for it's academics? Do they carry out high calibre research?
- sn41 8y ago
  I'd say they are better than Reliance Jio institute when it comes to high calibre research.
  - hesarenu 8y ago
    That does not say much.
    - sn41 8y ago
      Sure, you're right. My original point was to point out the hypocrisy of the government policy. But you have raised a related point about IITs. Aside from being underfunded (in comparison to global standards) there are systemic issues with IITs which make it underperform in research - first, they were designed as undergraduate institutes. The administrators constantly harangue, and block the ways of the colleagues who want to do research - for example, disallowing travel during the semester etc. More importantly, the best PG students in India do not go to the IITs. They go to IISc or abroad. It is the PG students who do most of the research in a university, not the UG students. Think of this: no teaching university in the US is a top-tier research university. When faculty systematically underperform in research over 60 years, when many of them were good researchers before they join the IITs, and many of them continue to be good researchers after they leave the IIT system, we need to rethink. Faculty must be allowed to do research 90 % of the time, travel freely, and spend very little time on teaching/administration. You can't have your legs in both the boats.
      - vkerlo 8y ago
        It's to be mentioned that the Reliance Jio Institute is a proposed one and doesn't exist yet.
heavenlyblue 8y ago
To be fair, being from a Russian family and having re-watched quite a few news programmes from the 90s I was amazed at how liberal the media was back then. I did not expect that. It's absolutely not the case anymore, but I can definitely say that the quality of the TV production was raised significantly. Well, you know where the money goes to.
codeisawesome 8y ago
Please do expand on that last sentence :-) what are the general principles you see?

frozenport 8y ago

Looks like some idiots lost their parents money to a cult. Could this be understood as change for the better?

hkai 8y ago

You probably shouldn't. I'm in a similar situation and although back home there are all these fancy cafes, relaxed and familiar environments and great people, the significant differences become apparent only in crisis. When it comes to police, ambulance or just having safe food, safe streets and competent government, there's a sea of difference, although it's easy for me to sit at a Hard Rock Cafe back home and think that this place is amazing. The situation in Kerala right now illustrates this well.

heavenlyblue 8y ago
Isn't getting a Hard Rock Cafe just a more upscaled version of having McDonald's move in your town?
- coldtea 8y ago
  Considering how India started 6-7 decades ago, after centuries of colonial rule and impoverishment, merely having McDonalds would be a great difference.
  - heavenlyblue 8y ago
    Yeah, but neither of these create a community where you'd want to come back. It's a sign of economical progress, but is it what makes you enjoy the life in the country?
    - oblio 8y ago
      Isn't the normal process: economic development -> social change? Economic development can happen within 5-10-15 years, while the second one usually takes 2-3 generations, so 40-60 years.
blntechie 8y ago
How is the situation in Kerala different from what happened in Peurto Rico or Houston?

th1nkdifferent 8y ago

I don't share the negative sentiments expressed by others in response to your question. I think things have changed significantly for the better. I'll leave you with these two images - you can decide for yourself if anything has changed: https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/india-2012.jpg https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/in... https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/india-2016.jpg https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/in... Source: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2017/new-night-lights-maps-open-up-possible-real-time-applications https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2017/new-night-lights-m... Scroll down to India's map and play with it for a while and then ask yourself whether India has changed for the better. You may not feel the difference as much as India's villagers and poor.

coldtea 8y ago
These two images don't answer the "if it's just a facade with air conditioning" question. This just shows that now there are more airconditioners there (well, lights). Parent was explicitly trying to differentiate between more money/technical change and different mentality.
- iamshs 8y ago
  Neither do those images show severe lack of hamburgers. Transporting cows can and has lead to lynchings.
danieka 8y ago
I'm struck by the difference between India and Burma and Pakistan.
- yorwba 8y ago
  Some cities in Pakistan actually seem to fade instead of getting brighter. I wonder why that is.
throwaway6789 8y ago
Looking at the comparison for Kerala, I really feel sad and worried. It doesn't look like much improved for my state during this period. And everyone likes to talk about Kerala being number one!

hiyer 8y ago

Why do you feel the US is better in this respect? The US has several other obvious advantages compared to India, but equality of wealth distribution and lack of crony capitalism don't seem to be among them.

rayiner 8y ago
You think the US has wealth inequality! In India its common for upper middle class people to have several full-time servents. Not only that, they are a whole separate class of people. They are treated like servents, not like employees.
distant_hat 8y ago
India is far more unequal than the US actually and crony capitalism is also much worse here. I've lived in the US for 8 years and would be bang in the middle class there, I have 3 full time house helps which I couldn't even think about in the US.

sandGorgon 8y ago

there's no better time to come back. Do come. Its about what you can create in the world's largest democracy. Are we the only country with constitutionally guaranteed Right to Privacy ? come and build. Oh and that goes for everyone else too. We have a lot of American, Brit and Chinese founders building successful startups in India.

mcny 8y ago
The difference is that the Americans, the Brits, and the Chinese can leave any time they want. I've talked to a few Indians and that tried to defend the mob that killed some guy for allegedly coming beef. More embarrassingly, they defended the police for taking a sample of the questionable meat for lab testing to check if it was beef. I can forgive the mob. Maybe things get heated and people lose their minds. They should all go to prison for life but I can forgive them once the sentences are handed. I can never forgive the police for taking a sample of the meat to check if it was beef. Democracy doesn't mean anything without rights of the minority. Not because you like Muslims. You can totally hate Muslims and still support basic decency of life for people of that faith.
- hycaria 8y ago
  What's this story ?
  - philbarr 8y ago
    googling for "india death beef" gives you quite a few similar stories to choose from.
    - hycaria 8y ago
      Then I don't understand "I can never forgive the police for taking a sample of the meat to check if it was beef." If it's forbidden in that state, where's the problem with sampling ?
      - 8y ago

sbmthakur 8y ago

> More specifically, I'd like to move back at some point and I'm not sure if I ever should. Things have improved in general. But it is impossible to answer this question without knowing more about your expectations.

ataturk 8y ago

If you want things better for India (and the world) work to reduce the power of the City of London and the banker criminals therein. They are the ones who quietly rule the world and pick winners and losers.

kamaal 8y ago

>>I'd like to move back at some point and I'm not sure if I ever should. That's entirely your decision to make. But nothing much has changed in any real sense. Some highways have been built and there is slight change in infrastructure. But if your question is if some huge changes have come to pass, alas nothing significant has changed in a real sense. I had to return permanently due to my parents health, but if I really had a chance I would return to US though.

naravara 8y ago

>this article gives me pause as to whether things have actually changed in shining New India or if it's just a facade with air conditioning. In the "old" India things like this would have gone on as a matter of course. The fact that such financial crimes are publicized and prosecuted, and that large industries are being subjected to professional management instead of capricious rule by the rich scions is definitely forward progress. If anything is incentive not to move back at this point, it's the traffic, poor urban planning, and air quality. In that one respect, everything seems to be getting worse. (Communalism seems to be rearing its head in nasty ways too)

rconti 8y ago

I think another hard thing is that your expectations will change the longer you live in the US (and as things change in the US as well), so what would have been a remarkable improvement to you before might be "not enough". Then again, one would expect that India is improving far more quickly than the US.