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>Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Why not? If ALL customers stopped tipping. This would crea

>Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Why not? If ALL customers stopped tipping. This would create a wave of disguntled employees who can't make rent and/or pay the bills. This sucks, of course, but if customers keep chugging at it refusing to pay then eventually someone will try to sue some business owner and then something will have to change. That's my opinion at least. People who tip keep the system alive. Also, I think it's weird for prices to be pre-tax. It's like you pay 10$ for a burger, oh wait 10% sales tax and a 15% tip and suddenly you pay 12.56$. edit: >Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge, customers might feel ripped off and will worry the fee doesn't really go to the servers or that they should still leave a tip. If a business has the following on his menu or signpost "We do NOT accept tips. We pay our servers a living wage. Our prices are a bit higher because of this!" will surely win some of my business. Once again, tipping should be for extra service, not some mandatory inclusive cost. Because if tipping becomes a mandatory think voluntary or not, why not just include it in the freaking wage, the only ones profiting right now are the business owners as they don't have to pay taxes over the tips (please correct me if I'm wrong about that last statement).

snuxoll 8y ago
As an employer you are supposed to pay your share of FICA and unemployment taxes on tips earned by employees as well as withhold income tax on them. Frequently it seems tips go under the radar and end up as unreported income, at least for cash tips, but all it would take is the IRS cracking down on restaurants and that would quickly end.
- javagram 8y ago
  The IRS would need to crack down on the individual servers, who are the ones misreporting their tips. As we move from a cash based to a card based transaction economy this seems less relevant. Credit card transactions are recorded and it seems unlikely they don’t show up on the employee’s pay stub.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
I don't see why everyone hates pre-tax prices. Making consumers aware of the cut the government gets on each transaction is an important part of transparency and accountability
- sokoloff 8y ago
  I would have felt this way a decade ago. Since traveling for a work a fair amount in Europe, it's very pleasant to just add up the figures and arrive at the total. The VAT is well-known, so I think the transparency aspect is covered. Want more transparency in the US? End payroll deductions and make people pay their income tax and FICA contributions all at once. That will do much more to drive transparency, I think.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    >Want more transparency in the US? End payroll deductions and make people pay their income tax and FICA contributions all at once. That will do much more to drive transparency, I think. This is a (pipe) dream of many who advocate for small government.
- detaro 8y ago
  Here in Germany the tax is (legally required to be) called out on each bill, typically right above the final sum. Pretty obvious IMHO.
  - elygre 8y ago
    Same in Norway.
TheCoelacanth 8y ago
If your plan to change something is "everyone will start doing something" without anything being done to organize that coordination, then your plan has failed before it starts.
Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
> If a business has the following on his menu or signpost "We do NOT accept tips. We pay our servers a living wage. Our prices are a bit higher because of this!" will surely win some of my business. This would be true if people were rational. And if people actually read everything presented to them. All it takes is a week working any sort of customer-facing service job to see that neither are true.

snuxoll 8y ago

As an employer you are supposed to pay your share of FICA and unemployment taxes on tips earned by employees as well as withhold income tax on them. Frequently it seems tips go under the radar and end up as unreported income, at least for cash tips, but all it would take is the IRS cracking down on restaurants and that would quickly end.

javagram 8y ago
The IRS would need to crack down on the individual servers, who are the ones misreporting their tips. As we move from a cash based to a card based transaction economy this seems less relevant. Credit card transactions are recorded and it seems unlikely they don’t show up on the employee’s pay stub.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

I don't see why everyone hates pre-tax prices. Making consumers aware of the cut the government gets on each transaction is an important part of transparency and accountability

sokoloff 8y ago
I would have felt this way a decade ago. Since traveling for a work a fair amount in Europe, it's very pleasant to just add up the figures and arrive at the total. The VAT is well-known, so I think the transparency aspect is covered. Want more transparency in the US? End payroll deductions and make people pay their income tax and FICA contributions all at once. That will do much more to drive transparency, I think.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >Want more transparency in the US? End payroll deductions and make people pay their income tax and FICA contributions all at once. That will do much more to drive transparency, I think. This is a (pipe) dream of many who advocate for small government.
detaro 8y ago
Here in Germany the tax is (legally required to be) called out on each bill, typically right above the final sum. Pretty obvious IMHO.
- elygre 8y ago
  Same in Norway.

TheCoelacanth 8y ago

If your plan to change something is "everyone will start doing something" without anything being done to organize that coordination, then your plan has failed before it starts.

Sohcahtoa82 8y ago

> If a business has the following on his menu or signpost "We do NOT accept tips. We pay our servers a living wage. Our prices are a bit higher because of this!" will surely win some of my business. This would be true if people were rational. And if people actually read everything presented to them. All it takes is a week working any sort of customer-facing service job to see that neither are true.