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I hate the tipping system ("tipping") in the US. It's so forced and only benefits the business owner. You should not have to rely on uncertain tips to make up a

I hate the tipping system ("tipping") in the US. It's so forced and only benefits the business owner. You should not have to rely on uncertain tips to make up a minimum wage that is just stupid. Both parties keep the system alive, someone has to break the cycle.

smelendez 8y ago
It's a mess but hard to fix. Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge, customers might feel ripped off and will worry the fee doesn't really go to the servers or that they should still leave a tip. Restaurant owners basically need to conspicuously state on the menu that service is included and the money will go to servers (and bussers, bartenders, etc.). But if you're a restaurant owner, do you want your menu dominated by a statement about your labor policies? There's a reason it's only really been tried by big name celebrity chefs, not your corner diner or Thai place.
- Rainymood 8y ago
  >Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Why not? If ALL customers stopped tipping. This would create a wave of disguntled employees who can't make rent and/or pay the bills. This sucks, of course, but if customers keep chugging at it refusing to pay then eventually someone will try to sue some business owner and then something will have to change. That's my opinion at least. People who tip keep the system alive. Also, I think it's weird for prices to be pre-tax. It's like you pay 10$ for a burger, oh wait 10% sales tax and a 15% tip and suddenly you pay 12.56$. edit: >Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge, customers might feel ripped off and will worry the fee doesn't really go to the servers or that they should still leave a tip. If a business has the following on his menu or signpost "We do NOT accept tips. We pay our servers a living wage. Our prices are a bit higher because of this!" will surely win some of my business. Once again, tipping should be for extra service, not some mandatory inclusive cost. Because if tipping becomes a mandatory think voluntary or not, why not just include it in the freaking wage, the only ones profiting right now are the business owners as they don't have to pay taxes over the tips (please correct me if I'm wrong about that last statement).
  - snuxoll 8y ago
    As an employer you are supposed to pay your share of FICA and unemployment taxes on tips earned by employees as well as withhold income tax on them. Frequently it seems tips go under the radar and end up as unreported income, at least for cash tips, but all it would take is the IRS cracking down on restaurants and that would quickly end.
    - javagram 8y ago
      The IRS would need to crack down on the individual servers, who are the ones misreporting their tips. As we move from a cash based to a card based transaction economy this seems less relevant. Credit card transactions are recorded and it seems unlikely they don’t show up on the employee’s pay stub.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    I don't see why everyone hates pre-tax prices. Making consumers aware of the cut the government gets on each transaction is an important part of transparency and accountability
    - sokoloff 8y ago
      I would have felt this way a decade ago. Since traveling for a work a fair amount in Europe, it's very pleasant to just add up the figures and arrive at the total. The VAT is well-known, so I think the transparency aspect is covered. Want more transparency in the US? End payroll deductions and make people pay their income tax and FICA contributions all at once. That will do much more to drive transparency, I think.
      - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
        >Want more transparency in the US? End payroll deductions and make people pay their income tax and FICA contributions all at once. That will do much more to drive transparency, I think. This is a (pipe) dream of many who advocate for small government.
    - 8y ago
- theNextEpisode 8y ago
  This is standard in the UK, it works fine.
- goostavos 8y ago
  >Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. I'd actually argue that's the fastest route TO fixing the problem! When money is on the line, I guarantee that service workers will correctly look to the employer for correcting their wage, rather than trying to exploit good graces of people who happen to eat at the restaurant. Tipping is a total sham
scarejunba 8y ago
It also benefits the tipped worker because they get to see more of that portion of their paycheck. Sales tax is never paid on tips and Income tax is rarely, if ever, paid either. It's just a tax exemption that we've encoded into social behaviour.
- Camillo 8y ago
  It's not a tax exemption, it's tax evasion. Same for all those "cash only" places - they're simply not declaring most of their income.
- metaphor 8y ago
  > ...Income tax is rarely, if ever, paid either. If tips are handled in the digital (as opposed to cash), doesn't that change the meta with respect to traceability?
- zaarn 8y ago
  Or, you know, business owners could pay their workers enough that it doesn't matter.
- robocat 8y ago
  It also harms the tipped worker. How many times have you seen a young service worker prostitute their feelings towards some arsehole or bitch, because the worker really needed the income? I live in a mostly tip-free country, and I am sure most front line workers here have a lot more agency to deal with nasty customers. Although the downside is that service staff have few ways to earn more except by changing jobs...
- Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
  > Income tax is rarely, if ever, paid either. This is quite illegal. Tips are income, and still have to be taxed.

smelendez 8y ago

It's a mess but hard to fix. Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge, customers might feel ripped off and will worry the fee doesn't really go to the servers or that they should still leave a tip. Restaurant owners basically need to conspicuously state on the menu that service is included and the money will go to servers (and bussers, bartenders, etc.). But if you're a restaurant owner, do you want your menu dominated by a statement about your labor policies? There's a reason it's only really been tried by big name celebrity chefs, not your corner diner or Thai place.

Rainymood 8y ago
>Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. Why not? If ALL customers stopped tipping. This would create a wave of disguntled employees who can't make rent and/or pay the bills. This sucks, of course, but if customers keep chugging at it refusing to pay then eventually someone will try to sue some business owner and then something will have to change. That's my opinion at least. People who tip keep the system alive. Also, I think it's weird for prices to be pre-tax. It's like you pay 10$ for a burger, oh wait 10% sales tax and a 15% tip and suddenly you pay 12.56$. edit: >Some restaurant owners have added automatic service charges or marked up prices to include service, but that's a mess too. If they mark up prices and customers don't realize service is included, they'll think the prices are too high and go elsewhere. If they add a mandatory service charge, customers might feel ripped off and will worry the fee doesn't really go to the servers or that they should still leave a tip. If a business has the following on his menu or signpost "We do NOT accept tips. We pay our servers a living wage. Our prices are a bit higher because of this!" will surely win some of my business. Once again, tipping should be for extra service, not some mandatory inclusive cost. Because if tipping becomes a mandatory think voluntary or not, why not just include it in the freaking wage, the only ones profiting right now are the business owners as they don't have to pay taxes over the tips (please correct me if I'm wrong about that last statement).
- snuxoll 8y ago
  As an employer you are supposed to pay your share of FICA and unemployment taxes on tips earned by employees as well as withhold income tax on them. Frequently it seems tips go under the radar and end up as unreported income, at least for cash tips, but all it would take is the IRS cracking down on restaurants and that would quickly end.
  - javagram 8y ago
    The IRS would need to crack down on the individual servers, who are the ones misreporting their tips. As we move from a cash based to a card based transaction economy this seems less relevant. Credit card transactions are recorded and it seems unlikely they don’t show up on the employee’s pay stub.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  I don't see why everyone hates pre-tax prices. Making consumers aware of the cut the government gets on each transaction is an important part of transparency and accountability
  - sokoloff 8y ago
    I would have felt this way a decade ago. Since traveling for a work a fair amount in Europe, it's very pleasant to just add up the figures and arrive at the total. The VAT is well-known, so I think the transparency aspect is covered. Want more transparency in the US? End payroll deductions and make people pay their income tax and FICA contributions all at once. That will do much more to drive transparency, I think.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      >Want more transparency in the US? End payroll deductions and make people pay their income tax and FICA contributions all at once. That will do much more to drive transparency, I think. This is a (pipe) dream of many who advocate for small government.
  - 8y ago
theNextEpisode 8y ago
This is standard in the UK, it works fine.
goostavos 8y ago
>Customers can't unilaterally "break the cycle." They'd effectively just be underpaying for service. I'd actually argue that's the fastest route TO fixing the problem! When money is on the line, I guarantee that service workers will correctly look to the employer for correcting their wage, rather than trying to exploit good graces of people who happen to eat at the restaurant. Tipping is a total sham

scarejunba 8y ago

It also benefits the tipped worker because they get to see more of that portion of their paycheck. Sales tax is never paid on tips and Income tax is rarely, if ever, paid either. It's just a tax exemption that we've encoded into social behaviour.

Camillo 8y ago
It's not a tax exemption, it's tax evasion. Same for all those "cash only" places - they're simply not declaring most of their income.
metaphor 8y ago
> ...Income tax is rarely, if ever, paid either. If tips are handled in the digital (as opposed to cash), doesn't that change the meta with respect to traceability?
zaarn 8y ago
Or, you know, business owners could pay their workers enough that it doesn't matter.
robocat 8y ago
It also harms the tipped worker. How many times have you seen a young service worker prostitute their feelings towards some arsehole or bitch, because the worker really needed the income? I live in a mostly tip-free country, and I am sure most front line workers here have a lot more agency to deal with nasty customers. Although the downside is that service staff have few ways to earn more except by changing jobs...
Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
> Income tax is rarely, if ever, paid either. This is quite illegal. Tips are income, and still have to be taxed.