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Defaults matter. If the 'default' tip on the app is 15% or 20%, then you need to make an affirmative choice to not tip. Yes, you can (usually) opt out, but the

Defaults matter. If the 'default' tip on the app is 15% or 20%, then you need to make an affirmative choice to not tip. Yes, you can (usually) opt out, but the screen is telling you in no uncertain terms that tipping is probably a social norm here—if you choose to opt out, you are making the extra effort to break the norm. Otherwise, why bother setting the default at all rather than force the user to enter an explicit amount every time, like on a restaurant bill? Also, there's a whole subbranch of behavioral economics ('nudge' economics) that basically studies how to frame choices and set defaults to influence decision making [1]. Advertisers and politicians also take advantage of the power of framing and defaults. So getting back to the ethics of the issue, it'd be interesting to see data on how much the default influences the actual tip paid, and how that incentivizes the actual business owner (e.g. set a higher tip rate, pay a lower wage?) [1] http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/richard.thaler/research/pdf/smartjpe.pdf http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/richard.thaler/research/pdf/...

AviationAtom 8y ago
I like when they set the defaults even higher than 20%. I went to a Sports Clips and the lowest default was $5 on an $18 haircut, with I think $10 being the highest. They spend probably 20 minutes on a basic haircut. I don't think that a 50%+ tip is reasonable.
- amazingman 8y ago
  Is it reasonable to think of this tip in terms of percentages?
  - carlmr 8y ago
    I'd say, yes. The honest price you're paying is price + tip. If the default tip is such a large percentage the pricing is dishonest.
    - dagw 8y ago
      I'd say, yes. On the other hand if tipping is paying for service, why do you 'deserve' a bigger tip just because I ordered the more expensive thing? If the 'fair' price for you talking to me about wine for 2 minutes and then bringing me the the bottle I want is $15 then surly you deserve $15 no matter if I select the $50 or $500 bottle.
      - bradstewart 8y ago
        I dunno if it's socially acceptable or not, but I generally tip a flat rate on alcohol.
      - carlmr 8y ago
        Between a $15 bottle and a $30 dollar bottle I wouldn't expect a big difference in service level, so double the tip would not be justified. So I can see what you mean, the connection between price and services rendered is a loose one. Although if I'm in a restaurant with $500 wines I usually expect the service to include a wine educated sommelier to create a good wine pairing depending on my taste preferences and the food I ordered. That is a lot different from just bringing the bottle. I expect the restaurant to also be a lot cleaner and more detail-oriented with its service and presentation in that price range. All in all I think tipping in general is wrong though. The chef making my food has the most influence on my experience and at the same time usually doesn't get a tip (I live in Germany currently, so no tipping out here, but even in the US I think they never get that much). I think waiters are obviously opposed to getting rid of tips. They might complain about the lower minimum wage, but the fact is if they're friendly they get a lot more money than for any unskilled job, especially because tips aren't taxed. A friend of mine in uni used to waitress at a bar. She said her wage is 4€/h. I asked her why she's doing it. She said she gets between 30€/h in tax free tips. That's roughly the net wage of an engineer in Europe (although you don't get the payments into social security, but most people don't think that far ahead). And this was in Germany, a low tipping country. I imagine in the US if you're friendly and fast at serving you can make much more.
        dagw 8y ago
- legohead 8y ago
  I didn't tip my hairdresser for ~25 years. They are charging me for a haircut, and that's all they give me. What am I tipping for? It's always the same haircut as well, he/she never "goes out of their way" to cut my hair. Then I learned that it's pretty much expected, so I tip "normally" now, but feel weird about it.
  - w00kie 8y ago
    Same at a restaurant. They are charging me for food in a nice environment. What am I tipping for? I don't want a nice conversation with my waiter.
    - javagram 8y ago
      The expectation of tipping at a restaurant exists to allow you to punish the employee for bad service over the course of a meal by leaving a 0% tip. It doesn’t make any sense for a counter service restaurant or other such business that consists of a single interaction before paying, where if you receive bad service you already know that and can just say “actually never mind I’m going to a different place, cancel my order”.
ljw1001 8y ago
> Yes, you can (usually) opt out, but the screen is telling you in no uncertain terms that tipping is probably a social norm here—if you choose to opt out, you are making the extra effort to break the norm. Yes, and that's ok when a tip is deserved, but apps that ask me to tip counter help are bullshit. Those people aren't paid less than kitchen workers because they're not expected to earn tips, and they don't do anything beyond the minimal expected work (fetching a donut, operating a cash-register). As you suggest, the tip app is a way to get proprietors to invest in POS so they can substitute tips for wages. No one makes out (again) except some silicon valley executive.
marssaxman 8y ago
It's such an obvious ploy that it is actually offensive, and makes me feel like I want to tip less just to punish the system designer for their presumption.

AviationAtom 8y ago

I like when they set the defaults even higher than 20%. I went to a Sports Clips and the lowest default was $5 on an $18 haircut, with I think $10 being the highest. They spend probably 20 minutes on a basic haircut. I don't think that a 50%+ tip is reasonable.

amazingman 8y ago
Is it reasonable to think of this tip in terms of percentages?
- carlmr 8y ago
  I'd say, yes. The honest price you're paying is price + tip. If the default tip is such a large percentage the pricing is dishonest.
  - dagw 8y ago
    I'd say, yes. On the other hand if tipping is paying for service, why do you 'deserve' a bigger tip just because I ordered the more expensive thing? If the 'fair' price for you talking to me about wine for 2 minutes and then bringing me the the bottle I want is $15 then surly you deserve $15 no matter if I select the $50 or $500 bottle.
    - bradstewart 8y ago
      I dunno if it's socially acceptable or not, but I generally tip a flat rate on alcohol.
    - carlmr 8y ago
      Between a $15 bottle and a $30 dollar bottle I wouldn't expect a big difference in service level, so double the tip would not be justified. So I can see what you mean, the connection between price and services rendered is a loose one. Although if I'm in a restaurant with $500 wines I usually expect the service to include a wine educated sommelier to create a good wine pairing depending on my taste preferences and the food I ordered. That is a lot different from just bringing the bottle. I expect the restaurant to also be a lot cleaner and more detail-oriented with its service and presentation in that price range. All in all I think tipping in general is wrong though. The chef making my food has the most influence on my experience and at the same time usually doesn't get a tip (I live in Germany currently, so no tipping out here, but even in the US I think they never get that much). I think waiters are obviously opposed to getting rid of tips. They might complain about the lower minimum wage, but the fact is if they're friendly they get a lot more money than for any unskilled job, especially because tips aren't taxed. A friend of mine in uni used to waitress at a bar. She said her wage is 4€/h. I asked her why she's doing it. She said she gets between 30€/h in tax free tips. That's roughly the net wage of an engineer in Europe (although you don't get the payments into social security, but most people don't think that far ahead). And this was in Germany, a low tipping country. I imagine in the US if you're friendly and fast at serving you can make much more.
      - dagw 8y ago
legohead 8y ago
I didn't tip my hairdresser for ~25 years. They are charging me for a haircut, and that's all they give me. What am I tipping for? It's always the same haircut as well, he/she never "goes out of their way" to cut my hair. Then I learned that it's pretty much expected, so I tip "normally" now, but feel weird about it.
- w00kie 8y ago
  Same at a restaurant. They are charging me for food in a nice environment. What am I tipping for? I don't want a nice conversation with my waiter.
  - javagram 8y ago
    The expectation of tipping at a restaurant exists to allow you to punish the employee for bad service over the course of a meal by leaving a 0% tip. It doesn’t make any sense for a counter service restaurant or other such business that consists of a single interaction before paying, where if you receive bad service you already know that and can just say “actually never mind I’m going to a different place, cancel my order”.

ljw1001 8y ago

> Yes, you can (usually) opt out, but the screen is telling you in no uncertain terms that tipping is probably a social norm here—if you choose to opt out, you are making the extra effort to break the norm. Yes, and that's ok when a tip is deserved, but apps that ask me to tip counter help are bullshit. Those people aren't paid less than kitchen workers because they're not expected to earn tips, and they don't do anything beyond the minimal expected work (fetching a donut, operating a cash-register). As you suggest, the tip app is a way to get proprietors to invest in POS so they can substitute tips for wages. No one makes out (again) except some silicon valley executive.

marssaxman 8y ago

It's such an obvious ploy that it is actually offensive, and makes me feel like I want to tip less just to punish the system designer for their presumption.