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As someone who lives in Toronto, there are some very aggressive cyclists here who do not follow the rules. They run through red lights and stop signs without st

by jm__87 8y ago

As someone who lives in Toronto, there are some very aggressive cyclists here who do not follow the rules. They run through red lights and stop signs without stopping, weave in and out of traffic, try to bike by cars on the shoulder and freak out on drivers if they happen to have not left enough room for a cyclist to zip past. Not all cyclists in Toronto are like this of course, but I've seen a lot of cyclists who just do whatever they want on the road and get upset when the cars can't anticipate their actions. With all that said I think it would be a good idea to lower speed limits and install some speeding cameras. I feel there has been an uptick in the number of cyclists on the streets in the past few years and we should keep them safe. Police should also be ticketing the unsafe cyclists as it is clear that they really have no interest in sharing the road with cars. Perhaps police are already ticketing these people at a good rate, but if they are, I've never heard about it. I feel these aggressive cyclists are probably the main contributers to the anti-cyclist sentiment you see among many drivers in Toronto. Showing cyclists and drivers that we aren't going to tolerate that level of irresponsibility would probably help shift public opinion on cyclists in Toronto.

scosman 8y ago
As someone who lives in Toronto, there are some very aggressive drivers here who do not follow the rules. 4 days ago I was clipped by a driver that ran a red light and drove straight into the bike lane without stopping or looking. He then gave me the finger and took off. Not all drivers are like this of course, but I've almost been killed by quite a few. That being said, I think we should keep anecdotal evidence and personal biases out of the discussion about how to save lives, and stick to the stats, which are abundant and clear.
- jm__87 8y ago
  And this sort of response is why we can never have a real conversation about this topic in Toronto. Not once did I ever say that there aren't terrible drivers in Toronto putting cyclists in danger. I thought this was a pretty clear conclusion just from reading the article. I agree we should change things to make things safer for cyclists. I just wanted to offer my own perspective on where the anti-cyclist sentiment may be coming from in the first place, given how many people I know have complained about aggressive cyclists. The reason these people all hate aggressive cyclists is because they don't want to hurt or kill someone with their car, not because they hate bikes.
  - scosman 8y ago
    I literally gave you the other point of view in the exact format you presented your ideas. If you find that an unreasonable format (and you should), that's on you. And related: the reason these people all hate aggressive drivers is because they are literally killing scores of people.
    - jm__87 8y ago
      I don't really see why the format is unreasonable (when either you or I used it) and I don't disagree with your points on aggressive drivers killing people. That is obviously part of what is happening. I feel we should be implementing rules that make everyone safer. I was only offering another side to the story that the article omitted as it seemed to be slanted against drivers.
      - scosman 8y ago
        You criticized me for using it. It seems you think something about my response is unreasonable. If you need it spelled out, the disturbing thing about your response if you used anecdotal examples to perpetuate and justify a negative sentiment towards a marginalized group that's being killed. It was in response to an article discussing how anti-cyclist sentiment is dangerous, and how it is killing people. Further, you generalized an entire population based on the actions of a few. It's a common tactic to pivot every conversation about cyclist and pedestrian deaths into a conversation about how they are aggressive and don't follow rules. This tactic is one of the things preventing a real reduction in deaths in our streets. It's especially frustrating when that's been disproved repeated by studies.
        jm__87 8y ago
        I didn't criticize the format. I was criticizing the fact you're taking a side on the issue, when clearly the issue is more complicated and we need to address both sides if the city is going to come to a solution that is viable. I don't see how anecdotes are off the table for a discussion forum. Maybe if we were using this discussion to draft legislation, sure, let's do some controlled studies. But we are not drafting legislation here. We're talking about peoples opinions: the anti-cyclist sentiment in the city of Toronto. This sentiment is entirely based on the collective personal anecdotes of people who drive in Toronto. I shared a small subset of those anecdotes. Cyclists are hardly marginalized in Toronto. To be marginalized is to be treated as insignificant. I'm pretty sure no one in Toronto, both drivers and non-drivers, could agree with that statement given the amount of attention cyclists have got over the years in Toronto press and city council. I also made a point of not generalizing the entire population on the actions of a few. I specifically said, "not all cyclists in Toronto are like this". There is no tactic being deployed here. I'm on the side of making things safer for everyone, including cyclists, and I feel that means lowering speed limits for drivers and coming down on unsafe cyclists. You want to turn this in to a victim-oppressor type situation when it is clearly not. And this is the problem I have with this whole conversation about cyclists in Toronto.

by jm__87 8y ago

scosman 8y ago

As someone who lives in Toronto, there are some very aggressive drivers here who do not follow the rules. 4 days ago I was clipped by a driver that ran a red light and drove straight into the bike lane without stopping or looking. He then gave me the finger and took off. Not all drivers are like this of course, but I've almost been killed by quite a few. That being said, I think we should keep anecdotal evidence and personal biases out of the discussion about how to save lives, and stick to the stats, which are abundant and clear.

jm__87 8y ago
And this sort of response is why we can never have a real conversation about this topic in Toronto. Not once did I ever say that there aren't terrible drivers in Toronto putting cyclists in danger. I thought this was a pretty clear conclusion just from reading the article. I agree we should change things to make things safer for cyclists. I just wanted to offer my own perspective on where the anti-cyclist sentiment may be coming from in the first place, given how many people I know have complained about aggressive cyclists. The reason these people all hate aggressive cyclists is because they don't want to hurt or kill someone with their car, not because they hate bikes.
- scosman 8y ago
  I literally gave you the other point of view in the exact format you presented your ideas. If you find that an unreasonable format (and you should), that's on you. And related: the reason these people all hate aggressive drivers is because they are literally killing scores of people.
  - jm__87 8y ago
    I don't really see why the format is unreasonable (when either you or I used it) and I don't disagree with your points on aggressive drivers killing people. That is obviously part of what is happening. I feel we should be implementing rules that make everyone safer. I was only offering another side to the story that the article omitted as it seemed to be slanted against drivers.
    - scosman 8y ago
      You criticized me for using it. It seems you think something about my response is unreasonable. If you need it spelled out, the disturbing thing about your response if you used anecdotal examples to perpetuate and justify a negative sentiment towards a marginalized group that's being killed. It was in response to an article discussing how anti-cyclist sentiment is dangerous, and how it is killing people. Further, you generalized an entire population based on the actions of a few. It's a common tactic to pivot every conversation about cyclist and pedestrian deaths into a conversation about how they are aggressive and don't follow rules. This tactic is one of the things preventing a real reduction in deaths in our streets. It's especially frustrating when that's been disproved repeated by studies.
      - jm__87 8y ago
        I didn't criticize the format. I was criticizing the fact you're taking a side on the issue, when clearly the issue is more complicated and we need to address both sides if the city is going to come to a solution that is viable. I don't see how anecdotes are off the table for a discussion forum. Maybe if we were using this discussion to draft legislation, sure, let's do some controlled studies. But we are not drafting legislation here. We're talking about peoples opinions: the anti-cyclist sentiment in the city of Toronto. This sentiment is entirely based on the collective personal anecdotes of people who drive in Toronto. I shared a small subset of those anecdotes. Cyclists are hardly marginalized in Toronto. To be marginalized is to be treated as insignificant. I'm pretty sure no one in Toronto, both drivers and non-drivers, could agree with that statement given the amount of attention cyclists have got over the years in Toronto press and city council. I also made a point of not generalizing the entire population on the actions of a few. I specifically said, "not all cyclists in Toronto are like this". There is no tactic being deployed here. I'm on the side of making things safer for everyone, including cyclists, and I feel that means lowering speed limits for drivers and coming down on unsafe cyclists. You want to turn this in to a victim-oppressor type situation when it is clearly not. And this is the problem I have with this whole conversation about cyclists in Toronto.