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I am currently working for a company trying to encourage different domains to actually have data to back up their claim that their products is fair trade, child

I am currently working for a company trying to encourage different domains to actually have data to back up their claim that their products is fair trade, child labor free, etc. I can tell you that except a very handful of companies, nobody can back their claim that their certifications is worth anything. Most of our projects end up being buried since it would prove that the industry have been lying for a long while. It doesn't matter if you are trying to buy fair trade products or not, it mostly isn't.

joveian 8y ago
You may be right, however a benefit of certifications supported by labor rights or human rights organizations is that those organizations have some ability to contact affected workers. Even if those certifications aren't as good as they claim I would need evidence that those rights organizations are not doing anything helpful to convince me that the certifications are completely worthless (although supporting the rights organizations is also necessary for certification to have any influence at all). It is possible that the list of certifications supported by rights organizations is smaller than I would think. I will point out that various organizations with large marketing budgets have a vested interest in convincing as many people as possible that nothing you can do matters and you shouldn't try to do anything different. I have come across the issue you are describing with even somewhat decent-seeming certifications (Cradle to Cradle, which is not backed by rights organizations as far as I know and is mostly a self audit sold by a consulting company) so I'm not saying you are necessarily doing marketing. I am interested if you have any other comments on this topic. Edit: Another benefit of certifications is that it can open companies to lawsuits where they are selling products that they wouldn't be exposed to without making claims based on certifications.
- TaylorAlexander 8y ago
  The benefits you mention seem valid, but I would also point out the problem of complacency. If people falsely believe that buying “rainforest certified” products means they aren’t impacting the rain forests, they’ll feel satisfied with their efforts. If they knew however that the label was a lie, they’d maintain their guilt for hurting the earth and feel motivated to do more. False certifications pacify the people from making more real change.
  - joveian 8y ago
    I think it is a good idea to keep in mind that the lucrative business opportunity here is convincing potential customers that things are much better than they actually are (at the lowest possible cost), and advertising will be geared to that effect. However, this issue has been going on for hundreds of years. It is still in the US possible to buy products produced in part by slave labor, forced labor, and/or child labor. I do not belive at all that people will make "real change" even without certification. Just the legal standing aspect is a huge reason to prefer certification even if they are entirely false advertising. If you can find one that helps avoid the worst issues meanwhile, then that is even better and can directly impact someone's life today, while leaving plenty of issues left to demand change. It can also be a way to frequently remind people that there is a problem, and anyone who genuinely belives that certifications will fix the issues may be more likely to demand change once they find out that isn't true. On the flip side, people who believe there is nothing at all they can do to make a difference seem highly unlikely to demand change. So, I still think trying to find the best available certifications is one thing that people can do to potentially have a small immediate positive effect and at least establish a ritual around caring and the possibility of legal challenges to force change. I also think it is worth avoiding the wost of the worst companies and supporting politicians and organizations that are working to make larger changes. If you have alternative suggestions, please share. Here is one example that I came across recently about someone using legal standing from certification to force small changes: http://waterandsanitationhealth.com/newsroom/ http://waterandsanitationhealth.com/newsroom/

joveian 8y ago

You may be right, however a benefit of certifications supported by labor rights or human rights organizations is that those organizations have some ability to contact affected workers. Even if those certifications aren't as good as they claim I would need evidence that those rights organizations are not doing anything helpful to convince me that the certifications are completely worthless (although supporting the rights organizations is also necessary for certification to have any influence at all). It is possible that the list of certifications supported by rights organizations is smaller than I would think. I will point out that various organizations with large marketing budgets have a vested interest in convincing as many people as possible that nothing you can do matters and you shouldn't try to do anything different. I have come across the issue you are describing with even somewhat decent-seeming certifications (Cradle to Cradle, which is not backed by rights organizations as far as I know and is mostly a self audit sold by a consulting company) so I'm not saying you are necessarily doing marketing. I am interested if you have any other comments on this topic. Edit: Another benefit of certifications is that it can open companies to lawsuits where they are selling products that they wouldn't be exposed to without making claims based on certifications.

TaylorAlexander 8y ago
The benefits you mention seem valid, but I would also point out the problem of complacency. If people falsely believe that buying “rainforest certified” products means they aren’t impacting the rain forests, they’ll feel satisfied with their efforts. If they knew however that the label was a lie, they’d maintain their guilt for hurting the earth and feel motivated to do more. False certifications pacify the people from making more real change.
- joveian 8y ago
  I think it is a good idea to keep in mind that the lucrative business opportunity here is convincing potential customers that things are much better than they actually are (at the lowest possible cost), and advertising will be geared to that effect. However, this issue has been going on for hundreds of years. It is still in the US possible to buy products produced in part by slave labor, forced labor, and/or child labor. I do not belive at all that people will make "real change" even without certification. Just the legal standing aspect is a huge reason to prefer certification even if they are entirely false advertising. If you can find one that helps avoid the worst issues meanwhile, then that is even better and can directly impact someone's life today, while leaving plenty of issues left to demand change. It can also be a way to frequently remind people that there is a problem, and anyone who genuinely belives that certifications will fix the issues may be more likely to demand change once they find out that isn't true. On the flip side, people who believe there is nothing at all they can do to make a difference seem highly unlikely to demand change. So, I still think trying to find the best available certifications is one thing that people can do to potentially have a small immediate positive effect and at least establish a ritual around caring and the possibility of legal challenges to force change. I also think it is worth avoiding the wost of the worst companies and supporting politicians and organizations that are working to make larger changes. If you have alternative suggestions, please share. Here is one example that I came across recently about someone using legal standing from certification to force small changes: http://waterandsanitationhealth.com/newsroom/ http://waterandsanitationhealth.com/newsroom/