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I am a Taiwanese millienial and I am deeply offended by this comment. Why would you say that the claim is understandable? ? Taiwan has been an independent demo

I am a Taiwanese millienial and I am deeply offended by this comment. Why would you say that the claim is understandable? ? Taiwan has been an independent democratic country with its own military, economy, culture, government, rules of law, and international relations for over 50 years. The current Chinese government has never ruled over the island. Not to mention most Taiwanese currently support independence, especially the young generations. Recent polls have come in around 70-80% of Taiwanese people believing they are 'taiwanese' and in no way associated with China. China is a big bully and a disgusting entity which keeps trying to write Taiwan off the international stage, via threats to businesses. Recently they were so petty, that when the president visited a bakery (85 degrees) in LA, they were so furious that they wanted the Taiwanese bakery to say that they are 'Taiwan, China'. So fucking ridiculous. Good thing they won't be able to take Taiwan militarily for a long long time. It's a heavily fortified island preparing for such an invasion for 50 years, and history has shown that rarely has any island invasion been successful, especially since China has such a weak military that has never seen real actions. The world is starting to see the ugly sides of China. And thank god. The Chinese government is horrible and needs to be reduced to irrelevance in the world stage.

coldtea 8y ago
>I am a Taiwanese millienial and I am deeply offended by this comment. Why would you say that the claim is understandable? ? Taiwan has been an independent democratic country with its own military, economy, culture, government, rules of law, and international relations for over 50 years. Doesn't this answer your own question? 50 years are nothing in historical terms.
- neya 8y ago
  By that logic, you could say the same for any country that has gotten its independence recently (say, Singapore)..
  - coldtea 8y ago
    That logic applies in context though, not as a blind rule. So, if those places had historical and cultural ties with other nations that go way back (like Chinese and Taiwanese people have), then yes, a recent split might not mean much for the legitimacy of a new country. If those places were merely occupied for centuries/millennia and "gotten their independence" then no. Heck, colonial powers designed and build states based on all kind of splits in existing peoples to "divide and conquer" them. Statehood comes and go, actual historical and national cultural ties are what's long lasting.
- tsuabing 8y ago
  what does that even mean??? South Korea was established in 1948. Estonia was established in 1991. The world recognizes these legitimate countries. From your past comment histories, it is clear you are pro China in every sense of the word. Maybe you should reexamine your values and see why you are so supportive of a disgusting government.
  - twblalock 8y ago
    From your comments, it is clear you are pro China in every sense of the word. Maybe you should reexamine your values and see why you are so supportive of a disgusting government. That's quite an overreaction, considering the person you are replying to did not mention China at all.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >Maybe you should reexamine your values and see why you are so supportive of a disgusting government. I'm not supporting any governments, I'm for supporting peoples and exposing hypocrisy. I have my issues with the Chinese government (for their internal behavior to their people), but Chinese foreign policy ain't it. People from places who actively invaded tens of countries that did nothing to theirs (and meddled with mine and others nearby), cry crocodile tears about China's horrible behavior -- the drop of tourism in some Pacific islands they have a beef with...
  - dang 8y ago
    Nationalistic flamewar is an abuse of HN and will get your account banned here. It doesn't help to create a throwaway account to do it, and in fact will eventually get your main account banned as well. Your feelings are easy to understand, but HN is an international site and people have strong feelings on all sides of such questions. For HN to continue as a forum for thoughtful discussion, we all need to remain respectful. If you can't do that, please don't post here. Creating an account and showing up in the threads gunslinging is not ok, and levelling personal accusations against another user for political or nationalistc reasons is a bannable offense. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- knuththetruth 8y ago
  The British tried a similar narrative with the War of 1812, and we in America are still alive and kicking. I hope the same for Taiwan and their independence.
  - Naga 8y ago
    If you remember, the United States declared war on Britain, not the other way around. Britain also arguably won the war since the result was status quo ante bellum, which is all that Britain wanted since they were at war with France at the same time for over a decade.
    - jonathankoren 8y ago
      Are you Canadian?
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Only the British and Americans weren't the same people (from a nationality perspective). Americans were merely British subjects -- from a hodge-podge of nationalities. A split into two countries South / North post Civil War would be a better example.
    - ardy42 8y ago
      > Only the British and Americans weren't the same people (from a nationality perspective). Americans were merely British subjects -- from a hodge-podge of nationalities. That seems like a distinction without a difference for this topic.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        It's only an inconsequential difference for people from not homogenous countries like the US. Peoples with cultural and historical ties with people in nearby nations do consider them extremely important.
        8y ago
- NeedMoreTea 8y ago
  Go back further and Taiwan was under Japanese occupation and the People's Republic of China didn't yet exist. So if the short timescale discounts Taiwan shouldn't it also discount China?
  - skh 8y ago
    I think the point is there are different perspectives that have some merit to them. Both sides have compelling points. But one thing is clear, the PRC have always considered Taiwan part of the China and currently they will not countenance a different view on the matter. Will the U.S. be vigilant enough for long enough so that Taiwan remains independent. Personally I’m skeptical that this is so.
    - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
      Always seems quite a stretch. China didn't first invade Taiwan until 1700 or thereabouts. They've been outside China for the last 120 years or so. China even formally ceded the territory to Japan in 1896 after the first China-Japan war. Of course what should matter is what the people of Taiwan want. Will the West provide enough response if it were needed? Sadly I suspect not.
      - skh 8y ago
        The PRC is younger than the ROC. The PRC, the government, have always considered Taiwan part of China. It’s in their constitution I believe.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Well, occupation shouldn't matter -- else Korea would be Japanese too. The way I see it, PRC is just the current regime, China is the whole culture/nation. Tomorrow China might not be RPC, but China and Taiwan peoples will still have much longer historical ties. It makes sense for Taiwanese people to want to have their own regime (after all the whole regime there was defined in opposition to the communist change in China), but it also makes sense for the mainland culture to consider them a part of their nation.
- cmurf 8y ago
  China's current government is 69 years old. China and Taiwan governments are roughly the same age, arguably Taiwan is older by 2 year based on the earlier formation of its constitution, the government fled to Taiwan the same year the PRC was formed, 1949.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
twblalock 8y ago
The other side of the story is that Taiwan was was ruled as part of a single China for centuries, it was the final holdout of the KMT government that was defeated when the communists took over, and it too would have fallen if it had not been protected by the United States. I'm on the side of independence as you are, but I can see why the PRC makes the claims it does.
nabla9 8y ago
You have my sympathies. Just remember that nobody can give you your independence when China challenges it. You must take it and be prepared to pay heavy price for it. When China forces others to choose side, most of the world looks at what is in their own national interest, not what is fair. Even if China is not ready to invade, they can learn from Russian type frozen conflict, sanctions and blockades. Slow paced conflict is enough to collapse Taiwan's economy. Just few missiles per week against different harbors and airfield closes Taiwan for business. Declaring Taiwan's as a war zone, effectively closes commercial air and sea traffic. Few years passes and Taiwan is like Crimea, big powers are willing to sell Taiwan to China in exchange of something else.
- tsuabing 8y ago
  Thanks for the kind words. We are always prepared to defend our country. Also, visit Taiwan!! it's a gorgeous island with warm friendly people and delicious food.
graeme 8y ago
You are not in a strong position, unfortunately. The rest of the world broadly agrees that China and Taiwan are the same country. You don't have representation in the UN, or formal recognition from most countries. Your biggest advantage was economic. But China's growth means you are now tiny compared to them, and you have a reduced ability to pay other countries for diplomatic recognition. Unlike the poster you replied to, I think this is deeply unfortunate, and deplore the fact that China wishes to gradually take you over. But, the strategic outlook is bleak: your western allies share of world GDP and military power shrinks every year, and the US has turned fickle. China meanwhile outpaces your growth every year, and is getting more and more power over countries that neighbour you. I don't think it would ever be an invasion, but rather a slow strangling, and a carrot of union offered. And it would be a long term project.
- canhascodez 8y ago
  In what sense are Taiwan and China the same country? China has acted as a bully to deny the independent status of Taiwan, but I have no idea why you think that they don't have the right to self-determination.
  - graeme 8y ago
    In the "do other countries recognize Taiwan as a country" sense. Generally speaking, the answer is that they don't. That means Taiwan's independence is only de facto, not de jure, and that is a very bad thing for Taiwan's prospects. Particularly in a world where China now has much more economic power than Taiwan. I'm not talking about "right". Like I said, I think Taiwan should be independent. But, I'm not optimistic about that continuing to be the case over the long run. China seems to really, really want it, and to be patient about it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy
    - SllX 8y ago
      With all due respect, the difference between de facto and de jure is just smoke and mirrors. Taiwan has been an effectively independent nation for over 50 years with fairly well defined borders and an inept organization like the United Nations is hardly your golden ticket for staking your sovereignty out on the map when the world is ruled by money, guns, drugs, and superior technology in approximately that order. The United States still has enough force in the area to force the PRC's hand if it invaded Taiwan tomorrow, but quite frankly I think Taiwan has better prospects of seeing the next 50 years as an independent nation than the United Nations does existing in 50 years.
skh 8y ago
It’s possible to understand a perspective while not agreeing with it. When Chiang fled to Taiwan wasn’t Taiwan considered part of China? You can’t understand why the successors to the victors of the civil war in mainland China want to control Taiwan? There are now two Chinas. It’s understandable that some want there to be one China.
- YorkshireSeason 8y ago
  Chiang fled to Taiwan wasn’t Taiwan considered part of China? Taiwan had been under Japanese rule for 50 years. When Japan lost the war, Taiwan was governed by the Allied Powers, who appointed Chen Yi [1] from the Kuomintang (KMT) as chief executive and garrison commander of Taiwan Province [2]. The Peace Treaty with Japan (Treaty of San Francisco) [3] and the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty (Treaty of Taipei) [4] both did not specify that Taiwan was a part of mainland China. I think formally/legally Taiwan was Japanese until 1952 but Japan was under allied control now. The question of Taiwan's legal status was left open in the aforementioned peace treaties. This is the legal/technical root cause for the problems with Taiwan's legal status even today. (The real reason is quite different: it's Taiwan's thriving democracy which undermines and contradicts the Chinese Communist Party narrative that democracy is neither needed nor desirable for the Chinese people.) The administration of Taiwan under Chen Yi was strained by increasing tensions between Taiwanese-born people and newly arrived mainlanders. Even back then, many Taiwanese resented the increasing streams of mainlanders coming to Taiwan as the Chinese Civil War raged on the mainland. This culminated in the February 28 1947 Incident [5], which cemented the KMT's rule. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Yi_(Kuomintang) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Yi_(Kuomintang) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Province https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Province [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_San_Francisco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_San_Francisco [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Taipei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Taipei [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_28_Incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_28_Incident
  - skh 8y ago
    What I meant was, didn’t the “Chinese people” (deliberately put in quotes) think of Taiwan as part of China? Japan took over Taiwan from China, didn’t it? As far as I know the PRC has always thought of Taiwan as part of China and I don’t think that will change soon. Thank you for the links.
Leary 8y ago
Why does the Republic of China still claim mainland China?
- YorkshireSeason 8y ago
  This is an interesting question! Maintaining this claim seems crazy. One interpretation is that Taiwan sees this as a bargaining chip with China, to be given up at an opportune moment, in exchange for something else, e.g. the China accepting Taiwan's independence. However, more likely is that giving up on the claim to rule China, might trigger the China's anti-secession laws, which in turn would lead to an invasion on Taiwan.
sizzle 8y ago
In a lighter note, sea salt coffee from 85° degrees bakery and maple brick toast are delicious :)
anoncow2018sund 8y ago
> Recent polls have come in around 70-80% of Taiwanese people believing they are 'taiwanese' and in no way associated with China. Ask any Taiwanese person who is their people's greatest hero. Or ask them who is their people's greatest poet or artist. I guarantee 99% of them would name someone that was born (and died centuries ago) in China. I think the biggest irony surrounding the "Taiwanese" identity is that the real Taiwanese, i.e. the Aboriginals, actually prefer the KMT over the DPP [1]. 1. The KMT is the party that is more sympathetic to China and leans towards reunification. The DPP, the current party in control of the presidency, is pro-independence.
- candiodari 8y ago
  Half the English world might say Shakespeare or Beethoven. Yet nobody wants to join the British empire and the country Beethoven lived in no longer exists ...

coldtea 8y ago

>I am a Taiwanese millienial and I am deeply offended by this comment. Why would you say that the claim is understandable? ? Taiwan has been an independent democratic country with its own military, economy, culture, government, rules of law, and international relations for over 50 years. Doesn't this answer your own question? 50 years are nothing in historical terms.

neya 8y ago
By that logic, you could say the same for any country that has gotten its independence recently (say, Singapore)..
- coldtea 8y ago
  That logic applies in context though, not as a blind rule. So, if those places had historical and cultural ties with other nations that go way back (like Chinese and Taiwanese people have), then yes, a recent split might not mean much for the legitimacy of a new country. If those places were merely occupied for centuries/millennia and "gotten their independence" then no. Heck, colonial powers designed and build states based on all kind of splits in existing peoples to "divide and conquer" them. Statehood comes and go, actual historical and national cultural ties are what's long lasting.
tsuabing 8y ago
what does that even mean??? South Korea was established in 1948. Estonia was established in 1991. The world recognizes these legitimate countries. From your past comment histories, it is clear you are pro China in every sense of the word. Maybe you should reexamine your values and see why you are so supportive of a disgusting government.
- twblalock 8y ago
  From your comments, it is clear you are pro China in every sense of the word. Maybe you should reexamine your values and see why you are so supportive of a disgusting government. That's quite an overreaction, considering the person you are replying to did not mention China at all.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >Maybe you should reexamine your values and see why you are so supportive of a disgusting government. I'm not supporting any governments, I'm for supporting peoples and exposing hypocrisy. I have my issues with the Chinese government (for their internal behavior to their people), but Chinese foreign policy ain't it. People from places who actively invaded tens of countries that did nothing to theirs (and meddled with mine and others nearby), cry crocodile tears about China's horrible behavior -- the drop of tourism in some Pacific islands they have a beef with...
- dang 8y ago
  Nationalistic flamewar is an abuse of HN and will get your account banned here. It doesn't help to create a throwaway account to do it, and in fact will eventually get your main account banned as well. Your feelings are easy to understand, but HN is an international site and people have strong feelings on all sides of such questions. For HN to continue as a forum for thoughtful discussion, we all need to remain respectful. If you can't do that, please don't post here. Creating an account and showing up in the threads gunslinging is not ok, and levelling personal accusations against another user for political or nationalistc reasons is a bannable offense. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
knuththetruth 8y ago
The British tried a similar narrative with the War of 1812, and we in America are still alive and kicking. I hope the same for Taiwan and their independence.
- Naga 8y ago
  If you remember, the United States declared war on Britain, not the other way around. Britain also arguably won the war since the result was status quo ante bellum, which is all that Britain wanted since they were at war with France at the same time for over a decade.
  - jonathankoren 8y ago
    Are you Canadian?
- coldtea 8y ago
  Only the British and Americans weren't the same people (from a nationality perspective). Americans were merely British subjects -- from a hodge-podge of nationalities. A split into two countries South / North post Civil War would be a better example.
  - ardy42 8y ago
    > Only the British and Americans weren't the same people (from a nationality perspective). Americans were merely British subjects -- from a hodge-podge of nationalities. That seems like a distinction without a difference for this topic.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      It's only an inconsequential difference for people from not homogenous countries like the US. Peoples with cultural and historical ties with people in nearby nations do consider them extremely important.
      - 8y ago
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Go back further and Taiwan was under Japanese occupation and the People's Republic of China didn't yet exist. So if the short timescale discounts Taiwan shouldn't it also discount China?
- skh 8y ago
  I think the point is there are different perspectives that have some merit to them. Both sides have compelling points. But one thing is clear, the PRC have always considered Taiwan part of the China and currently they will not countenance a different view on the matter. Will the U.S. be vigilant enough for long enough so that Taiwan remains independent. Personally I’m skeptical that this is so.
  - NeedMoreTea 8y ago
    Always seems quite a stretch. China didn't first invade Taiwan until 1700 or thereabouts. They've been outside China for the last 120 years or so. China even formally ceded the territory to Japan in 1896 after the first China-Japan war. Of course what should matter is what the people of Taiwan want. Will the West provide enough response if it were needed? Sadly I suspect not.
    - skh 8y ago
      The PRC is younger than the ROC. The PRC, the government, have always considered Taiwan part of China. It’s in their constitution I believe.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Well, occupation shouldn't matter -- else Korea would be Japanese too. The way I see it, PRC is just the current regime, China is the whole culture/nation. Tomorrow China might not be RPC, but China and Taiwan peoples will still have much longer historical ties. It makes sense for Taiwanese people to want to have their own regime (after all the whole regime there was defined in opposition to the communist change in China), but it also makes sense for the mainland culture to consider them a part of their nation.
cmurf 8y ago
China's current government is 69 years old. China and Taiwan governments are roughly the same age, arguably Taiwan is older by 2 year based on the earlier formation of its constitution, the government fled to Taiwan the same year the PRC was formed, 1949.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

twblalock 8y ago

The other side of the story is that Taiwan was was ruled as part of a single China for centuries, it was the final holdout of the KMT government that was defeated when the communists took over, and it too would have fallen if it had not been protected by the United States. I'm on the side of independence as you are, but I can see why the PRC makes the claims it does.

nabla9 8y ago

You have my sympathies. Just remember that nobody can give you your independence when China challenges it. You must take it and be prepared to pay heavy price for it. When China forces others to choose side, most of the world looks at what is in their own national interest, not what is fair. Even if China is not ready to invade, they can learn from Russian type frozen conflict, sanctions and blockades. Slow paced conflict is enough to collapse Taiwan's economy. Just few missiles per week against different harbors and airfield closes Taiwan for business. Declaring Taiwan's as a war zone, effectively closes commercial air and sea traffic. Few years passes and Taiwan is like Crimea, big powers are willing to sell Taiwan to China in exchange of something else.

tsuabing 8y ago
Thanks for the kind words. We are always prepared to defend our country. Also, visit Taiwan!! it's a gorgeous island with warm friendly people and delicious food.

graeme 8y ago

You are not in a strong position, unfortunately. The rest of the world broadly agrees that China and Taiwan are the same country. You don't have representation in the UN, or formal recognition from most countries. Your biggest advantage was economic. But China's growth means you are now tiny compared to them, and you have a reduced ability to pay other countries for diplomatic recognition. Unlike the poster you replied to, I think this is deeply unfortunate, and deplore the fact that China wishes to gradually take you over. But, the strategic outlook is bleak: your western allies share of world GDP and military power shrinks every year, and the US has turned fickle. China meanwhile outpaces your growth every year, and is getting more and more power over countries that neighbour you. I don't think it would ever be an invasion, but rather a slow strangling, and a carrot of union offered. And it would be a long term project.

canhascodez 8y ago
In what sense are Taiwan and China the same country? China has acted as a bully to deny the independent status of Taiwan, but I have no idea why you think that they don't have the right to self-determination.
- graeme 8y ago
  In the "do other countries recognize Taiwan as a country" sense. Generally speaking, the answer is that they don't. That means Taiwan's independence is only de facto, not de jure, and that is a very bad thing for Taiwan's prospects. Particularly in a world where China now has much more economic power than Taiwan. I'm not talking about "right". Like I said, I think Taiwan should be independent. But, I'm not optimistic about that continuing to be the case over the long run. China seems to really, really want it, and to be patient about it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy
  - SllX 8y ago
    With all due respect, the difference between de facto and de jure is just smoke and mirrors. Taiwan has been an effectively independent nation for over 50 years with fairly well defined borders and an inept organization like the United Nations is hardly your golden ticket for staking your sovereignty out on the map when the world is ruled by money, guns, drugs, and superior technology in approximately that order. The United States still has enough force in the area to force the PRC's hand if it invaded Taiwan tomorrow, but quite frankly I think Taiwan has better prospects of seeing the next 50 years as an independent nation than the United Nations does existing in 50 years.

skh 8y ago

It’s possible to understand a perspective while not agreeing with it. When Chiang fled to Taiwan wasn’t Taiwan considered part of China? You can’t understand why the successors to the victors of the civil war in mainland China want to control Taiwan? There are now two Chinas. It’s understandable that some want there to be one China.

YorkshireSeason 8y ago
Chiang fled to Taiwan wasn’t Taiwan considered part of China? Taiwan had been under Japanese rule for 50 years. When Japan lost the war, Taiwan was governed by the Allied Powers, who appointed Chen Yi [1] from the Kuomintang (KMT) as chief executive and garrison commander of Taiwan Province [2]. The Peace Treaty with Japan (Treaty of San Francisco) [3] and the Sino-Japanese Peace Treaty (Treaty of Taipei) [4] both did not specify that Taiwan was a part of mainland China. I think formally/legally Taiwan was Japanese until 1952 but Japan was under allied control now. The question of Taiwan's legal status was left open in the aforementioned peace treaties. This is the legal/technical root cause for the problems with Taiwan's legal status even today. (The real reason is quite different: it's Taiwan's thriving democracy which undermines and contradicts the Chinese Communist Party narrative that democracy is neither needed nor desirable for the Chinese people.) The administration of Taiwan under Chen Yi was strained by increasing tensions between Taiwanese-born people and newly arrived mainlanders. Even back then, many Taiwanese resented the increasing streams of mainlanders coming to Taiwan as the Chinese Civil War raged on the mainland. This culminated in the February 28 1947 Incident [5], which cemented the KMT's rule. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Yi_(Kuomintang) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Yi_(Kuomintang) [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Province https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Province [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_San_Francisco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_San_Francisco [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Taipei https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Taipei [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_28_Incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_28_Incident
- skh 8y ago
  What I meant was, didn’t the “Chinese people” (deliberately put in quotes) think of Taiwan as part of China? Japan took over Taiwan from China, didn’t it? As far as I know the PRC has always thought of Taiwan as part of China and I don’t think that will change soon. Thank you for the links.

Leary 8y ago

Why does the Republic of China still claim mainland China?

YorkshireSeason 8y ago
This is an interesting question! Maintaining this claim seems crazy. One interpretation is that Taiwan sees this as a bargaining chip with China, to be given up at an opportune moment, in exchange for something else, e.g. the China accepting Taiwan's independence. However, more likely is that giving up on the claim to rule China, might trigger the China's anti-secession laws, which in turn would lead to an invasion on Taiwan.

sizzle 8y ago

In a lighter note, sea salt coffee from 85° degrees bakery and maple brick toast are delicious :)

anoncow2018sund 8y ago

> Recent polls have come in around 70-80% of Taiwanese people believing they are 'taiwanese' and in no way associated with China. Ask any Taiwanese person who is their people's greatest hero. Or ask them who is their people's greatest poet or artist. I guarantee 99% of them would name someone that was born (and died centuries ago) in China. I think the biggest irony surrounding the "Taiwanese" identity is that the real Taiwanese, i.e. the Aboriginals, actually prefer the KMT over the DPP [1]. 1. The KMT is the party that is more sympathetic to China and leans towards reunification. The DPP, the current party in control of the presidency, is pro-independence.

candiodari 8y ago
Half the English world might say Shakespeare or Beethoven. Yet nobody wants to join the British empire and the country Beethoven lived in no longer exists ...