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I never understood this line everyone parrots about not giving the first number. That tactic works best only in situations where both parties have no clue what

by whack 8y ago

I never understood this line everyone parrots about not giving the first number. That tactic works best only in situations where both parties have no clue what ballpark the other party has in mind. Which is definitely not the situation when you're one of 1000 similarly qualified engineers applying for a well-established job role. In situations where both parties have a reasonable idea of what ballpark they are playing in, it's far better to toss the first number, because you get to set the baseline for the rest of the negotiation. Unless you're a very experienced negotiator, that initial baseline plays an outsized role in where the negotiation winds up finishing. For example, suppose both you and your counterparty know that the negotiation is going to be within the 100-150k ballpark. You tossing out 145k as the first number, will play much more to your benefit than allowing the recruiter to toss out 105k as the first number. Obviously this tactic only works if you're well aware of what ballpark you're playing in. But that should be achievable by simply talking to your classmates, or perusing the many salary aggregators and discussion forums online. The only caveat I would add is to wait until all interviews are over and you've received confirmation that the company wants to make you an offer. At that point, no one is going to reject you for being too optimistic with your initial offer. Worst case scenario: you're going to get a much lower counteroffer. But at least you get the benefits associated with setting the baseline. https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-daily/what-is-anchoring-in-negotiation/ https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-daily/w...

dunpeal 8y ago
It's theoretically optimal not to give the first number. The employer doesn't know how much you're making now, and can't legally ask (not in CA and NY anyway). They have a theoretical top comp they're willing to offer for the position. Once you give them your number, their top offer becomes min(your_goal, their_top), which cannot be higher than their_top. In simple terms, if you know your market value, and you tell them that number, you will never know of or benefit from their willingness to pay above that (often for good reason). > For example, suppose both you and your counterparty know that the negotiation is going to be within the 100-150k ballpark. You tossing out 145k as the first number, will play much more to your benefit than allowing the recruiter to toss out 105k as the first number. That would be the recruiter messing up. His initial goal is to get you in the door, unless your expected pay ranges do not overlap. In this case, they do, so saying a low number just means he's encouraging a potential fit to walk away. A recruiter in this situation will typically state a range, and definitely won't just quote a number near the bottom of the range.
- whack 8y ago
  You're assuming that if you don't give the first number, the recruiter will give you a number that hints at "their_top". Realistically though, recruiters are very good at figuring out what your ballpark is, based on your experience/qualifications/market-conditions, and will toss out a number that's in the lower end of this ballpark, regardless of "their_top". At that point, not only do you not have any clue about their_top, but you've also allowed the negotiation to become anchored at a lowball number.
  - dunpeal 8y ago
    > Realistically though, recruiters are very good at figuring out what your ballpark is, based on your experience/qualifications/market-conditions, and will toss out a number that's in the lower end of this ballpark, regardless of "their_top". Excuse my skepticism, but have you ever actually seen that happen? Your supposition reflects lack of understanding of how both external and internal recruiters work, and how they are incentivized. Their KPI is the number of candidates sourced by them who got hired. Which means they are two-way salespeople: they sell you on the position, and sell the employer on you. Their key goal in the early stages is to ensure you go through the process if you are qualified. They have zero incentive to lowball you. If anything they can and sometimes do get in trouble for inflating a candidates' comp expectations. So what you described, where a recruiter tries to preemptively negotiate you down, simply doesn't happen because it is counter-productive behavior for recruiter. He has absolutely no reason to lowball you, and every reason to make you aware of the highest pay you can possibly expect - because that will make you excited to come in for an interview. > At that point, not only do you not have any clue about their_top, but you've also allowed the negotiation to become anchored at a lowball number. This is negotiation between professional adults. The fact that the other party said a number doesn't obligate or "anchor" you in any way. You can simply say "sorry, but I'm looking for $X", or (more likely, if you have options) just assume the pay expectations aren't matching and walk away. The risk of the latter happening is why you'd never see this "recruiter lowball" in reality.
- usaar333 8y ago
  > It's theoretically optimal not to give the first number. Only if you ignore transaction costs of the interview process. Unless you feel you can get their numbers before you start, it may be worth the time savings to give up some potential future leverage.
uberduber 8y ago
Name the first number AFTER you receive the offer, at that point they are salivating to have you. Not before, if you name your number before then you are generally just turning them off and giving them a reason to filter you out.

by whack 8y ago

dunpeal 8y ago

It's theoretically optimal not to give the first number. The employer doesn't know how much you're making now, and can't legally ask (not in CA and NY anyway). They have a theoretical top comp they're willing to offer for the position. Once you give them your number, their top offer becomes min(your_goal, their_top), which cannot be higher than their_top. In simple terms, if you know your market value, and you tell them that number, you will never know of or benefit from their willingness to pay above that (often for good reason). > For example, suppose both you and your counterparty know that the negotiation is going to be within the 100-150k ballpark. You tossing out 145k as the first number, will play much more to your benefit than allowing the recruiter to toss out 105k as the first number. That would be the recruiter messing up. His initial goal is to get you in the door, unless your expected pay ranges do not overlap. In this case, they do, so saying a low number just means he's encouraging a potential fit to walk away. A recruiter in this situation will typically state a range, and definitely won't just quote a number near the bottom of the range.

whack 8y ago
You're assuming that if you don't give the first number, the recruiter will give you a number that hints at "their_top". Realistically though, recruiters are very good at figuring out what your ballpark is, based on your experience/qualifications/market-conditions, and will toss out a number that's in the lower end of this ballpark, regardless of "their_top". At that point, not only do you not have any clue about their_top, but you've also allowed the negotiation to become anchored at a lowball number.
- dunpeal 8y ago
  > Realistically though, recruiters are very good at figuring out what your ballpark is, based on your experience/qualifications/market-conditions, and will toss out a number that's in the lower end of this ballpark, regardless of "their_top". Excuse my skepticism, but have you ever actually seen that happen? Your supposition reflects lack of understanding of how both external and internal recruiters work, and how they are incentivized. Their KPI is the number of candidates sourced by them who got hired. Which means they are two-way salespeople: they sell you on the position, and sell the employer on you. Their key goal in the early stages is to ensure you go through the process if you are qualified. They have zero incentive to lowball you. If anything they can and sometimes do get in trouble for inflating a candidates' comp expectations. So what you described, where a recruiter tries to preemptively negotiate you down, simply doesn't happen because it is counter-productive behavior for recruiter. He has absolutely no reason to lowball you, and every reason to make you aware of the highest pay you can possibly expect - because that will make you excited to come in for an interview. > At that point, not only do you not have any clue about their_top, but you've also allowed the negotiation to become anchored at a lowball number. This is negotiation between professional adults. The fact that the other party said a number doesn't obligate or "anchor" you in any way. You can simply say "sorry, but I'm looking for $X", or (more likely, if you have options) just assume the pay expectations aren't matching and walk away. The risk of the latter happening is why you'd never see this "recruiter lowball" in reality.
usaar333 8y ago
> It's theoretically optimal not to give the first number. Only if you ignore transaction costs of the interview process. Unless you feel you can get their numbers before you start, it may be worth the time savings to give up some potential future leverage.

uberduber 8y ago

Name the first number AFTER you receive the offer, at that point they are salivating to have you. Not before, if you name your number before then you are generally just turning them off and giving them a reason to filter you out.