11 ms·

Hypothetically speaking, if one is opposed to some or all aspects of the "One China" doctrine, what can one do locally/globally to effect change? Or is the anne

Hypothetically speaking, if one is opposed to some or all aspects of the "One China" doctrine, what can one do locally/globally to effect change? Or is the annexation of Taiwan a near-certainty via the forces of economics?

dleslie 8y ago
It will be interesting to see if/when China moves to economically censure a G8 country for engaging in trade with Taiwan.
- nabla9 8y ago
  Of course not. PRC is itself engaging in trade with Taiwan. This is about handful of tiny countries who still maintain formal diplomatic relations with Taiwan. For example United States is not formally recognizing Taiwan as a country.
  - hkai 8y ago
    It's entirely possible if Taiwan has an even more pro-democracy government than it has now. I can imagine China can easily sacrifice the entire trade with Taiwan if the sensitive issues are concerned.
- hkai 8y ago
  Could US be the first in a few years? Given the outrage when Taiwanese president visited a Taiwanese coffee shop in LA last week. European countries appear to be content to please the Chinese government, be it on trade or in academia.
- Leary 8y ago
  Do you think China will gain more from censuring a country from engaging in trade with Taiwan? Has China ever done so?
  - prewett 8y ago
    They severely reduced the amount of trade with Norway for six years after Norway gave the Nobel Peace Prize to a Chinese dissident. That's not Taiwan, but I think that if they'd be willing to do that for a dissident, how much more so regarding Taiwan. The Chinese government has a solid history of attempting to control actions of other countries by "punishing" their businesses when they do something China doesn't like.
everybodyknows 8y ago
Direct action: Book a vacation to Palau. Tip the locals, generously.
skh 8y ago
I believe that Taiwan will eventually merge with the mainland. Perhaps via the two-systems one China route that Hong Kong did. The claims of mainland China on Taiwan are understandable and I don't fault them for their perspective on the issue. Is the United States really willing to go to war with China over this? I don't think so. Are Thailand, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea, the Philippines willing to go to war with China? China's desire for Taiwan far exceeds the willingness of others to fight them over it. This is especially so since China is taking the long range approach. They aren't going to outright invade Taiwan. It's akin to a death by a thousand cuts. Slowly, but surely, they inch their way to control.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Retric 8y ago
  Taiwan has a relatively strong military and while China would easily win any war, it would be crazy to fight it’s military.
  - h4b4n3r0 8y ago
    As the past 60 years of US Military action have made abundantly clear, even for the best military on the planet by quite a margin no war is “easy” to win. Now, granted, China won’t agonize about collateral damage the way we do, but even then it’s not “easy”, especially if you plan to take permanent control of the territory afterwards. For that to happen, the overwhelming majority of the country has to _want_ such control, and the remaining people have to not be too heavily invested in the idea of independence. It’s pretty much the opposite of what you see in Taiwan.
    - tepidandroid 8y ago
      > Now, granted, China won’t agonize about collateral damage the way we do Please qualify this statement.
      - 8y ago
empath75 8y ago
I don’t have a dog in this fight either way, but the us doesn’t seem particularly interested in defending our allies anywhere right now, so I imagine that China is going to start flexing its muscles in more and more obvious ways. I think even if you think trump is an anomoly, America is tiring of maintaining the post WWII order, and China is only just ramping up its interest in expanding its sphere of influence.
- rectang 8y ago
  Russian interference in US elections has made a lot of Americans more hostile to autocracies. The effect varies in strength with political affiliation, and different groups within the country have held different levels of animus to autocracy over decades. But there is a base level of fundamental conflict between liberal society and illiberal society that never goes away.
ballooney 8y ago
Don't buy stuff that's made in China, and optionally (but importantly) then email that CEO of the company whose stuff you decided not to buy that was made in China, explaining why. The dragon doesn't care what you say about it so long as it's still being fed.
- enraged_camel 8y ago
  The dragon is not going to care about what the ants are doing. It will only care if other dragons start taking collective action. “Vote with your wallet” is bullshit.
  - jacksproit 8y ago
    Vote with your wallet is very effective with an educated populace.
    - ohazi 8y ago
      So essentially, not effective at all.
- Leary 8y ago
  Why does Foxconn have its operations in Mainland China when it's a Taiwanese firm? Should I email them and convince them to move out of China?
  - tsuabing 8y ago
    So? Many other countries have factories in China. But now even Samsung has most production in Vietnam. I have no doubt Foxconn will move most of production out of China soon. Foxconn is investing heavily in India production. Yes, you should email Apple to tell them to move out of China.
    - Leary 8y ago
      Okay, who should I send my email to? Do you think customer service will work? Or do you think calling them is a better bet.
knuththetruth 8y ago
Be critical and unsupportive of American businesses that work with the CCP. Cite explicitly their human rights record and policy on Taiwan. Don't swallow narratives about the vaguely positive outcomes that could come from collaboration with the regime, nor unquestioningly embrace ideologies that requires expansion into the mainland as a moral or logical necessity.
mistermann 8y ago
> Hypothetically speaking, if one is opposed to some or all aspects of the "One China" doctrine, what can one do locally/globally to effect change? Voting with your wallet or voicing your concerns seem fairly futile to me. What I believe could make a difference is trying to educate people on what the honest (non-partisan) reality of the situation is, to the best of your ability. When you encounter someone online stating something that is untrue (flat out wrong, generalized to the point of important detail being missed, mischaracterization of news or literature), speak up with a more accurate representation of the truth. The goal of this is not to change the mind of the person who has written something untrue (although that's a nice side benefit in the rare case it happens), it is for the hundreds/thousands of other readers who subconsciously form opinions based on the entirety of information they consume, so they they at least have a chance of hearing lesser-biased versions of reality.
- anoncow2018sund 8y ago
  From what I see, the problem isn't so much with the truth, but rather the narrative and interpretation of these facts. For example, suppose a vaccine had a 90% success rate. This is the truth, however anti-vaxxers will focus on the 10% failure rate. Both China and Taiwan agree there was a civil war and the losers retreated to Taiwan. However, the narrative of the event is where it differs.
  - mistermann 8y ago
    > From what I see, the problem isn't so much with the truth, but rather the narrative and interpretation of these facts. Exactly. > For example, suppose a vaccine had a 90% success rate. This is the truth, however anti-vaxxers will focus on the 10% failure rate. And pro-vaxxers will "focus" (ie: discuss that, and only that) the success rate. But if you don't cover up the 10% and someone finds out, this is how "conspiracy theories" get started.
anoncow2018sund 8y ago
The intermarriage rate between Mainland Chinese and Taiwanese is extremely high. Something like 80% of all international marriages in Taiwan are with Mainland Chinese. There are also a ton of Taiwanese that are studying and working in China. China recently passed a law that lets Taiwanese have the same access to benefits as locals, e.g. healthcare, schools for kids, buying property, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if within a few generations, every Taiwanese has a direct connection with Mainland China again, either through a spouse, friends, or through work. When that time comes, I can see reunification happen naturally. And for those people who think 1 country, 2 systems is bad because of Hong Kong, take a look at Macau. They are in a similar situation, but there are no protests there at all due to all the economic benefits they got. So if China can do that to Taiwan, I think they will be accepted with open arms.

dleslie 8y ago

It will be interesting to see if/when China moves to economically censure a G8 country for engaging in trade with Taiwan.

nabla9 8y ago
Of course not. PRC is itself engaging in trade with Taiwan. This is about handful of tiny countries who still maintain formal diplomatic relations with Taiwan. For example United States is not formally recognizing Taiwan as a country.
- hkai 8y ago
  It's entirely possible if Taiwan has an even more pro-democracy government than it has now. I can imagine China can easily sacrifice the entire trade with Taiwan if the sensitive issues are concerned.
hkai 8y ago
Could US be the first in a few years? Given the outrage when Taiwanese president visited a Taiwanese coffee shop in LA last week. European countries appear to be content to please the Chinese government, be it on trade or in academia.
Leary 8y ago
Do you think China will gain more from censuring a country from engaging in trade with Taiwan? Has China ever done so?
- prewett 8y ago
  They severely reduced the amount of trade with Norway for six years after Norway gave the Nobel Peace Prize to a Chinese dissident. That's not Taiwan, but I think that if they'd be willing to do that for a dissident, how much more so regarding Taiwan. The Chinese government has a solid history of attempting to control actions of other countries by "punishing" their businesses when they do something China doesn't like.

everybodyknows 8y ago

Direct action: Book a vacation to Palau. Tip the locals, generously.

skh 8y ago

I believe that Taiwan will eventually merge with the mainland. Perhaps via the two-systems one China route that Hong Kong did. The claims of mainland China on Taiwan are understandable and I don't fault them for their perspective on the issue. Is the United States really willing to go to war with China over this? I don't think so. Are Thailand, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea, the Philippines willing to go to war with China? China's desire for Taiwan far exceeds the willingness of others to fight them over it. This is especially so since China is taking the long range approach. They aren't going to outright invade Taiwan. It's akin to a death by a thousand cuts. Slowly, but surely, they inch their way to control.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Retric 8y ago
Taiwan has a relatively strong military and while China would easily win any war, it would be crazy to fight it’s military.
- h4b4n3r0 8y ago
  As the past 60 years of US Military action have made abundantly clear, even for the best military on the planet by quite a margin no war is “easy” to win. Now, granted, China won’t agonize about collateral damage the way we do, but even then it’s not “easy”, especially if you plan to take permanent control of the territory afterwards. For that to happen, the overwhelming majority of the country has to _want_ such control, and the remaining people have to not be too heavily invested in the idea of independence. It’s pretty much the opposite of what you see in Taiwan.
  - tepidandroid 8y ago
    > Now, granted, China won’t agonize about collateral damage the way we do Please qualify this statement.
    - 8y ago

empath75 8y ago

I don’t have a dog in this fight either way, but the us doesn’t seem particularly interested in defending our allies anywhere right now, so I imagine that China is going to start flexing its muscles in more and more obvious ways. I think even if you think trump is an anomoly, America is tiring of maintaining the post WWII order, and China is only just ramping up its interest in expanding its sphere of influence.

rectang 8y ago
Russian interference in US elections has made a lot of Americans more hostile to autocracies. The effect varies in strength with political affiliation, and different groups within the country have held different levels of animus to autocracy over decades. But there is a base level of fundamental conflict between liberal society and illiberal society that never goes away.

ballooney 8y ago

Don't buy stuff that's made in China, and optionally (but importantly) then email that CEO of the company whose stuff you decided not to buy that was made in China, explaining why. The dragon doesn't care what you say about it so long as it's still being fed.

enraged_camel 8y ago
The dragon is not going to care about what the ants are doing. It will only care if other dragons start taking collective action. “Vote with your wallet” is bullshit.
- jacksproit 8y ago
  Vote with your wallet is very effective with an educated populace.
  - ohazi 8y ago
    So essentially, not effective at all.
Leary 8y ago
Why does Foxconn have its operations in Mainland China when it's a Taiwanese firm? Should I email them and convince them to move out of China?
- tsuabing 8y ago
  So? Many other countries have factories in China. But now even Samsung has most production in Vietnam. I have no doubt Foxconn will move most of production out of China soon. Foxconn is investing heavily in India production. Yes, you should email Apple to tell them to move out of China.
  - Leary 8y ago
    Okay, who should I send my email to? Do you think customer service will work? Or do you think calling them is a better bet.

knuththetruth 8y ago

Be critical and unsupportive of American businesses that work with the CCP. Cite explicitly their human rights record and policy on Taiwan. Don't swallow narratives about the vaguely positive outcomes that could come from collaboration with the regime, nor unquestioningly embrace ideologies that requires expansion into the mainland as a moral or logical necessity.

mistermann 8y ago

> Hypothetically speaking, if one is opposed to some or all aspects of the "One China" doctrine, what can one do locally/globally to effect change? Voting with your wallet or voicing your concerns seem fairly futile to me. What I believe could make a difference is trying to educate people on what the honest (non-partisan) reality of the situation is, to the best of your ability. When you encounter someone online stating something that is untrue (flat out wrong, generalized to the point of important detail being missed, mischaracterization of news or literature), speak up with a more accurate representation of the truth. The goal of this is not to change the mind of the person who has written something untrue (although that's a nice side benefit in the rare case it happens), it is for the hundreds/thousands of other readers who subconsciously form opinions based on the entirety of information they consume, so they they at least have a chance of hearing lesser-biased versions of reality.

anoncow2018sund 8y ago
From what I see, the problem isn't so much with the truth, but rather the narrative and interpretation of these facts. For example, suppose a vaccine had a 90% success rate. This is the truth, however anti-vaxxers will focus on the 10% failure rate. Both China and Taiwan agree there was a civil war and the losers retreated to Taiwan. However, the narrative of the event is where it differs.
- mistermann 8y ago
  > From what I see, the problem isn't so much with the truth, but rather the narrative and interpretation of these facts. Exactly. > For example, suppose a vaccine had a 90% success rate. This is the truth, however anti-vaxxers will focus on the 10% failure rate. And pro-vaxxers will "focus" (ie: discuss that, and only that) the success rate. But if you don't cover up the 10% and someone finds out, this is how "conspiracy theories" get started.

anoncow2018sund 8y ago

The intermarriage rate between Mainland Chinese and Taiwanese is extremely high. Something like 80% of all international marriages in Taiwan are with Mainland Chinese. There are also a ton of Taiwanese that are studying and working in China. China recently passed a law that lets Taiwanese have the same access to benefits as locals, e.g. healthcare, schools for kids, buying property, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if within a few generations, every Taiwanese has a direct connection with Mainland China again, either through a spouse, friends, or through work. When that time comes, I can see reunification happen naturally. And for those people who think 1 country, 2 systems is bad because of Hong Kong, take a look at Macau. They are in a similar situation, but there are no protests there at all due to all the economic benefits they got. So if China can do that to Taiwan, I think they will be accepted with open arms.