9 ms·

Author here - I had submitted this a couple months ago and HN's asked me to resubmit to see if it fared a bit better. "Ask me anything..."

by Pamar 8y ago

pdfernhout 8y ago
Thanks for putting together this summary of the book "A Philosophy of Loneliness" by Lard Svendsen and adding your reflections on it. Lots to think about there. I especially liked the picture of the person with the guitar by the seashore. And the David Foster Wallace quote you requoted was insightful: "Lonely people tend, rather, to be lonely because they decline to bear the psychic costs of being around other humans. They are allergic to people. People affect them too strongly." You write near the end of your review: "The book clarified for me an important point, though: Solitude is something that we actively seek, while Loneliness is something that we try to escape. Apart from that, they are exactly the same thing: being alone (which in turn is something that happens quite often - in fact, humans are "alone" most of the time)." Given that, what are your thoughts then on the phrase "alone in a crowd"? For example: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-introverts-corner/201211/introverts-and-the-loneliness-loop https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-introverts-corne... "We know loneliness may or may not be related to being alone. Introverts can be perfectly happy alone, or terribly lonely in a crowd. But if introverts are at any particular risk for loneliness, it could be because we set a high bar for friendship. We desire and require deep connections and would rather be lonely alone than in a crowd. But realistically, those deep connections are not easy to find, and if we get caught short and our only choice is superficial socializing or nothing, we can get lonely." Also, you say the book suggests: "Another of the prevalent journalism theories (internet and social media will result in an increase of individualism and loneliness) seems not to be supported by empirical studies: those who use social media report having a more active social life and more frequent personal interaction with other (outside of social media itself, of course)." I wonder about that, given the notion of narrowly focused "supernormal stimuli" and how super-fascinating (anti-)social media can potentially displace more holistic human interactions especially over meals. But websites that arrange meetings of people with common interests can counter that trend, so obviously that's not a black and white thing. A related book on that if you are looking for something to summarize next: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernormal_Stimuli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernormal_Stimuli
- Pamar 8y ago
  "alone in a crowd": the book's author argues that actually this is the most natural human experience - we are "always alone", even with loved ones, even while having passionate sex, because our own concept of self is not shareable (barring some sci-fi trope): what I am feeling now while composing this answer is different from what the person sitting to my side (I'm on a bus) is experiencing. Same with me towards her, of course. There are maybe 50 people in this bus, and we are fifty individuals travelling alone towards a specific German town... everyone has different stories and different reasons and probably different hopes or expectations about what happens when we get there. And trying to make an info dump to another person to make him/her understand my situation so that I am not alone anymore would take hours if not days... and probably further distance each other, because the girl sitting to my side would then be unable to share how it feels to get a stranger twice her age to start describing his feelings about this trips, in English, too, which is not mine or her native tongue. ;)
  - muxator 8y ago
    Lots of crossroads on that bus. When I was on one, in the exact same situation, it was impossibile not to think about the staggering quantity of humans in this world, each of them separated by language, culture, beliefs, needs, space. Suddenly, communication and building bridges becomes one of the really important questions.
- Pamar 8y ago
  About: "more holistic human interactions especially over meals". This my own personal opinion and I am not offering any advice or passing judgement: "If you feel like checking out HN's over lunch more compelling than talking to your colleagues... it's because you find your colleagues not very interesting to interact with". Shunning social interaction in such circumstances is rude and not a desiderable trait, but the desire to do so means just that: you are not very interested in the people you go around with. Ask yourself why it is so, and try adressing that problem instead.
  - Tharkun 8y ago
ilovelearning 8y ago
Very interesting. Thank you! “... a forum discussion about - of all things - modern apparel industry” Would you please be so kind to share the link to this discussion?
- Pamar 8y ago
  I wanted to include it in the original piece, actually, and I have tried to retrieve it again just to answer to you, but both attempts failed :( I am fairly sure I read it here on HN, but I tried looking for the author's surname in comments and could not find it (or some obvious misspellings). Sorry, if I ever manage to find it again I will update my piece too.
  - ilovelearning 8y ago
    No problem! Thank you for the attempts and the quick reply!
delbel 8y ago
The book, and your article, basically skip over a key fact. That is, the real definition of loneliness, in my opinion, is being accepted by your peers, and seeking self validated, and the lack of these two things on a daily or regular basis is "bad". But the next question is, what is the value of seeking validation, peer acceptance, "go along to get along", etc? If you value this a lot in life, and you are alone, you are going to be sad because there will be nobody there to fill this void aka "loneliness". How to deal with this negative trait? Just no longer value this idea, because it can't be a positive aspect until you realize it is a completely made up subjective ideology and throw it out the window. Instead, seek validation in yourself and do what you want to do in life, what you think is right, what your goals should be, how you reach them positively, and what hurdles and steps you need to get there. You'll find out you won't be lonely at all, because other people will see your virtue and self leadership and then come bother to seeking their own validation. Unfortunately you could end up in a situation where people won't leave you alone trying to figure out your "secret", which I found is kind of a paradox. I actually think this whole seeking validation from other peer groups is completely toxic and leads to a sociopathic power structure (the whole "SJW" movement is an extreme version of this), but that's a different subject. Also it sounds like you have some negative thinking going on here, I would read Learned Optimism (the above has nothing to do this this book), Feeling Good, and other CBT books. The last part about Rituals is also alarming for another reason I won't go into this board, but basically when you are negative or toxic it creates a void where, so to speak, evil can take over. Trying to escape evil with "rituals" (whatever that is, worshiping the devil? doing degenerative things like drugs and alcohol?) is toxic behavior that's just going to make things worse.

Author here - I had submitted this a couple months ago and HN's asked me to resubmit to see if it fared a bit better. "Ask me anything..."

by Pamar 8y ago

Author here - I had submitted this a couple months ago and HN's asked me to resubmit to see if it fared a bit better. "Ask me anything..."

pdfernhout 8y ago

Thanks for putting together this summary of the book "A Philosophy of Loneliness" by Lard Svendsen and adding your reflections on it. Lots to think about there. I especially liked the picture of the person with the guitar by the seashore. And the David Foster Wallace quote you requoted was insightful: "Lonely people tend, rather, to be lonely because they decline to bear the psychic costs of being around other humans. They are allergic to people. People affect them too strongly." You write near the end of your review: "The book clarified for me an important point, though: Solitude is something that we actively seek, while Loneliness is something that we try to escape. Apart from that, they are exactly the same thing: being alone (which in turn is something that happens quite often - in fact, humans are "alone" most of the time)." Given that, what are your thoughts then on the phrase "alone in a crowd"? For example: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-introverts-corner/201211/introverts-and-the-loneliness-loop https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-introverts-corne... "We know loneliness may or may not be related to being alone. Introverts can be perfectly happy alone, or terribly lonely in a crowd. But if introverts are at any particular risk for loneliness, it could be because we set a high bar for friendship. We desire and require deep connections and would rather be lonely alone than in a crowd. But realistically, those deep connections are not easy to find, and if we get caught short and our only choice is superficial socializing or nothing, we can get lonely." Also, you say the book suggests: "Another of the prevalent journalism theories (internet and social media will result in an increase of individualism and loneliness) seems not to be supported by empirical studies: those who use social media report having a more active social life and more frequent personal interaction with other (outside of social media itself, of course)." I wonder about that, given the notion of narrowly focused "supernormal stimuli" and how super-fascinating (anti-)social media can potentially displace more holistic human interactions especially over meals. But websites that arrange meetings of people with common interests can counter that trend, so obviously that's not a black and white thing. A related book on that if you are looking for something to summarize next: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernormal_Stimuli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernormal_Stimuli

Pamar 8y ago
"alone in a crowd": the book's author argues that actually this is the most natural human experience - we are "always alone", even with loved ones, even while having passionate sex, because our own concept of self is not shareable (barring some sci-fi trope): what I am feeling now while composing this answer is different from what the person sitting to my side (I'm on a bus) is experiencing. Same with me towards her, of course. There are maybe 50 people in this bus, and we are fifty individuals travelling alone towards a specific German town... everyone has different stories and different reasons and probably different hopes or expectations about what happens when we get there. And trying to make an info dump to another person to make him/her understand my situation so that I am not alone anymore would take hours if not days... and probably further distance each other, because the girl sitting to my side would then be unable to share how it feels to get a stranger twice her age to start describing his feelings about this trips, in English, too, which is not mine or her native tongue. ;)
- muxator 8y ago
  Lots of crossroads on that bus. When I was on one, in the exact same situation, it was impossibile not to think about the staggering quantity of humans in this world, each of them separated by language, culture, beliefs, needs, space. Suddenly, communication and building bridges becomes one of the really important questions.
Pamar 8y ago
About: "more holistic human interactions especially over meals". This my own personal opinion and I am not offering any advice or passing judgement: "If you feel like checking out HN's over lunch more compelling than talking to your colleagues... it's because you find your colleagues not very interesting to interact with". Shunning social interaction in such circumstances is rude and not a desiderable trait, but the desire to do so means just that: you are not very interested in the people you go around with. Ask yourself why it is so, and try adressing that problem instead.
- Tharkun 8y ago

ilovelearning 8y ago

Very interesting. Thank you! “... a forum discussion about - of all things - modern apparel industry” Would you please be so kind to share the link to this discussion?

Pamar 8y ago
I wanted to include it in the original piece, actually, and I have tried to retrieve it again just to answer to you, but both attempts failed :( I am fairly sure I read it here on HN, but I tried looking for the author's surname in comments and could not find it (or some obvious misspellings). Sorry, if I ever manage to find it again I will update my piece too.
- ilovelearning 8y ago
  No problem! Thank you for the attempts and the quick reply!

delbel 8y ago

The book, and your article, basically skip over a key fact. That is, the real definition of loneliness, in my opinion, is being accepted by your peers, and seeking self validated, and the lack of these two things on a daily or regular basis is "bad". But the next question is, what is the value of seeking validation, peer acceptance, "go along to get along", etc? If you value this a lot in life, and you are alone, you are going to be sad because there will be nobody there to fill this void aka "loneliness". How to deal with this negative trait? Just no longer value this idea, because it can't be a positive aspect until you realize it is a completely made up subjective ideology and throw it out the window. Instead, seek validation in yourself and do what you want to do in life, what you think is right, what your goals should be, how you reach them positively, and what hurdles and steps you need to get there. You'll find out you won't be lonely at all, because other people will see your virtue and self leadership and then come bother to seeking their own validation. Unfortunately you could end up in a situation where people won't leave you alone trying to figure out your "secret", which I found is kind of a paradox. I actually think this whole seeking validation from other peer groups is completely toxic and leads to a sociopathic power structure (the whole "SJW" movement is an extreme version of this), but that's a different subject. Also it sounds like you have some negative thinking going on here, I would read Learned Optimism (the above has nothing to do this this book), Feeling Good, and other CBT books. The last part about Rituals is also alarming for another reason I won't go into this board, but basically when you are negative or toxic it creates a void where, so to speak, evil can take over. Trying to escape evil with "rituals" (whatever that is, worshiping the devil? doing degenerative things like drugs and alcohol?) is toxic behavior that's just going to make things worse.