4 ms·

How horrible. If I had a dime for every time somebody on the internet took a civil disagreement of opinion to an emotional level I would be a trillionaire. If

How horrible. If I had a dime for every time somebody on the internet took a civil disagreement of opinion to an emotional level I would be a trillionaire. If this is how I qualified my self-worth I would be in a very bad place. This is also the reason I deleted my Reddit account. God forbid you offer technical advise or attempt to explain a complex subject and the answer somehow becomes extremely political. The biggest example I remember is the folks at r/programming really REALLY want WASM to replace JavaScript. I, being a long time JavaScript programmer, explained how WASM isn't replacing JavaScript for technical reasons and the stated goals around that technology. Immediate emotional failure on an epic scale. I could have said something about harming children and would have been less reviled. This isn't even a political subject. I imagine an actual political subreddit being quite comical. People get emotional online for all kinds of reasons. PRO TIP: there are many people online that cannot follow a conversation, possibly their own conversation, or who have trouble with basic reading comprehension. ANOTHER PRO TIP: echo chambers and conformity are very real qualities that easily feel threatened for nonthreatening reasons.

lihaciudaniel 8y ago
You are right.. But what made you to still use HN, it is still like reddit but more technical. Edit 1: assuming that you deleted reddit and you don't even browse it.
s-shellfish 8y ago
> I could have said something about harming children and would have been less reviled. Yes, but that's literally because people see their technologies as being more human than most humans. It's something that goes down to an individuals core and is intrinsically defining of how they understand and express. Not saying it makes sense to average Joe. Just a different breed of person. For example, the soundness property of a language. Think about why that might be what creates the echo chamber, rather than thinking about how the echo chamber reacts when whatever contributes to verifying soundness is modified. The reaction might be a side effect, rather than an outright planned action.
- austincheney 8y ago
  When I encounter echo chambers here is what I see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformity It is the opposite of wanting to learn, explore, or be challenged. It is all about harmony and using people as numbers to wrap yourself in a warm comfort blanket of emotional protection and qualification. It is the very idea that an opinion is truth when it can be made popular or false if it can be demonized by a congregation, particularly when every conversation is a contest with emotional validation as the prize. When emotional harmony becomes more important than the subject matter of discussion I am done.
  - s-shellfish 8y ago
    I agree, but this is the root of my dilemma from which my own understanding has grown. If I agree with you right here and now, have we not technically formed our own 'echo chamber'? Echo chambers from the outside look like inside out fishbowls because they are. But every set of agreeable statements, whether shared between individuals or distributed through time, same system - pieces are just labeled differently. However, I do understand the emotional feeling that occurs when conforming is heavily pressured, from nearly every side. That's disharmonous emotionally to the people it is disharmonous to. The ones who get silenced. I understand both sides. Can't say I know more than that. Can't say I have an opinion on the matter because it goes beyond the facts. Another way to look at the problem: are math and logic an echo chamber?
    - austincheney 8y ago
      > If I agree with you right here and now, have we not technically formed our own 'echo chamber'? Good point, but no. Agreement is not necessarily an indication of conformance. You have to also consider to what degree that agreement, or disagreement, must be exercised. I agree and disagree with many political opinions, but I don't join groups who share my political opinions. My personal opinions often remain personal. Even if I did join a group of politically like-minded persons I would not go on regular protests to merely advertise my opinion. I certainly wouldn't take it to a higher level by going to a counter-protest or berating those I disagree with. Typically the more important and advertised a social agreement becomes the less it is about the subject matter agreed upon and the more it is about exercising forced social norms of a group. In math and logic agreement is attained by a proof and not by some social pressure to force a predetermined outcome.
FLUX-YOU 8y ago
I know that some people do have real emotion behind their posts, but I also know some people who read emotion from text when there isn't any at all. e.g. "Javascript is fucking stupid" could equally be a screaming rant or just a casual comment with a group of cursing sailors. Pretending you know what emotions someone's expressing from plaintext is basically the opposite problem of what you're talking about and is equally flawed. I wasn't there though, so if they were leveling personal attacks because of your dissenting opinion, you were likely correct about the emotional part.
hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
/r/programming is the most toxic programming-related group/forum/board I've ever seen. Incidentally, I think part of the communication problem is that commenter #2 read commenter #1's comment, plus a bunch of other people's comments that color the interpretation of commenter #1's statement. It only gets worse as your comment ages and whole discussions evolve around it.

lihaciudaniel 8y ago

You are right.. But what made you to still use HN, it is still like reddit but more technical. Edit 1: assuming that you deleted reddit and you don't even browse it.

s-shellfish 8y ago

> I could have said something about harming children and would have been less reviled. Yes, but that's literally because people see their technologies as being more human than most humans. It's something that goes down to an individuals core and is intrinsically defining of how they understand and express. Not saying it makes sense to average Joe. Just a different breed of person. For example, the soundness property of a language. Think about why that might be what creates the echo chamber, rather than thinking about how the echo chamber reacts when whatever contributes to verifying soundness is modified. The reaction might be a side effect, rather than an outright planned action.

austincheney 8y ago
When I encounter echo chambers here is what I see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformity It is the opposite of wanting to learn, explore, or be challenged. It is all about harmony and using people as numbers to wrap yourself in a warm comfort blanket of emotional protection and qualification. It is the very idea that an opinion is truth when it can be made popular or false if it can be demonized by a congregation, particularly when every conversation is a contest with emotional validation as the prize. When emotional harmony becomes more important than the subject matter of discussion I am done.
- s-shellfish 8y ago
  I agree, but this is the root of my dilemma from which my own understanding has grown. If I agree with you right here and now, have we not technically formed our own 'echo chamber'? Echo chambers from the outside look like inside out fishbowls because they are. But every set of agreeable statements, whether shared between individuals or distributed through time, same system - pieces are just labeled differently. However, I do understand the emotional feeling that occurs when conforming is heavily pressured, from nearly every side. That's disharmonous emotionally to the people it is disharmonous to. The ones who get silenced. I understand both sides. Can't say I know more than that. Can't say I have an opinion on the matter because it goes beyond the facts. Another way to look at the problem: are math and logic an echo chamber?
  - austincheney 8y ago
    > If I agree with you right here and now, have we not technically formed our own 'echo chamber'? Good point, but no. Agreement is not necessarily an indication of conformance. You have to also consider to what degree that agreement, or disagreement, must be exercised. I agree and disagree with many political opinions, but I don't join groups who share my political opinions. My personal opinions often remain personal. Even if I did join a group of politically like-minded persons I would not go on regular protests to merely advertise my opinion. I certainly wouldn't take it to a higher level by going to a counter-protest or berating those I disagree with. Typically the more important and advertised a social agreement becomes the less it is about the subject matter agreed upon and the more it is about exercising forced social norms of a group. In math and logic agreement is attained by a proof and not by some social pressure to force a predetermined outcome.

FLUX-YOU 8y ago

I know that some people do have real emotion behind their posts, but I also know some people who read emotion from text when there isn't any at all. e.g. "Javascript is fucking stupid" could equally be a screaming rant or just a casual comment with a group of cursing sailors. Pretending you know what emotions someone's expressing from plaintext is basically the opposite problem of what you're talking about and is equally flawed. I wasn't there though, so if they were leveling personal attacks because of your dissenting opinion, you were likely correct about the emotional part.

hfdgiutdryg 8y ago

/r/programming is the most toxic programming-related group/forum/board I've ever seen. Incidentally, I think part of the communication problem is that commenter #2 read commenter #1's comment, plus a bunch of other people's comments that color the interpretation of commenter #1's statement. It only gets worse as your comment ages and whole discussions evolve around it.