4 ms·

Judging by how many people in this comment thread identify with the traits described in the article, it probably just shows that those traits are pretty ordinar

by ivoras 8y ago

Judging by how many people in this comment thread identify with the traits described in the article, it probably just shows that those traits are pretty ordinary, just a facet of the normal diversity of humanity, and have probably been with us forever. The true problems of recent societies might in fact be overdiagnosis and Hollywood-style oversimplifications, not the traits themselves. Not everyone needs to be hyper emphatic (though we probably need a great number of such individual to keep our societies cohesive). In other words, don't judge, do live and let live, defend yourself and people around you if attacked. Don't watch TV.

philipov 8y ago
I think people imagine that mental pathologies are differences of kind, but they're actually differences of degree. Every mental pathology exists in a less intense form as a personality disorder, and even weaker as non-pathological personality traits. When we stop demonizing mental illness, it's easy to see those traits in ourselves, but the difference is in how intensely those traits negatively affect our lives. Many people get anxious, and this causes them to look at people with anxiety disorders and think "That's like what I've got. Why don't you just pull yourself out of it?" but what they don't consider is that the difference is one of degree, not of kind.
- RobertRoberts 8y ago
  >"When we stop demonizing mental illness, it's easy to see those traits in ourselves, but the difference is in how intensely those traits negatively affect our lives." Are all mental traits that affect our lives negatively mental illness? I think it's quite a leap to say that just because you have negative effect in your life from a mental perspective/problem/limitation/etc... doesn't mean it's "illness" that requires a cure. Sometimes it really is "just get over it", if not, then every person I know needs emergency therapy and drugs right now cause they are all ill. If you want to say it's a matter of degree, sure, a valid a argument, but who lets who decide what the degree is? What if the person that says "pull yourself out of it" was affected many hundreds of times worse than the person hearing that advice? Now is degrees a purely personal and relative matter? How many people have heard stories of spoiled rich brats scream bloody murder and acted like they were dying because they didn't get the exact color they wanted in their designer luggage? (replace in the nouns for different scenarios) And conversely, the poor child with nothing, is happy and grateful just to have a little more food at mealtime? "Just get over it" _is_ the answer to the rich brat who wants to wallow when you put it in perspective of others. But from their own perspective, it's the end of the world. (lots of personal experience seeing both sides of this issue)
  - philipov 8y ago
    That's my point: the difference between a pathology and a personality trait is merely of degree. A trait in small concentration is beneficial, but if you concentrate it enough, it becomes toxic and we label that a pathology. In between health and pathology is a vast grey area where things get complicated, and people are biased to think everyone else is just acting like a spoiled rich kid.
    - wu-ikkyu 8y ago
      I agree with your premise but would nitpick against calling mental illnesses (in the psychiatric sense) pathologies. >pathology: the science of the causes and effects of diseases, especially the branch of medicine that deals with the laboratory examination of samples of body tissue for diagnostic or forensic purposes. In the words of Allen Frances: "psychiatric diagnosis still relies exclusively on fallible subjective judgments rather than objective biological tests". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances There are no known causes for psychiatric illnesses. Once a biological cause is discovered, it is no longer deemed a mental illness, but an actual biological pathology.
  - outlace 8y ago
    Is mild hypertension an illness? At some point the dividing line between normal and abnormal is blurry and arbitrary. But there are people with say severe anxiety that impairs their ability to carry out normal daily activities. That’s a mental illness, but is mild social anxiety? Maybe not, but it’s probably not optimal health either. There’s just the best possible life on one end and the worst possible life on the other.
  - roflc0ptic 8y ago
    My household has a similar debate around the usefulness of kindness and empathy for changing other people's behavior. My household has several empathetic and caring members, who frequently (and effectively) use those traits to guide other people into better behavior patterns, often just by existing in the same space. On the other hand, sometimes there are dudes whose bad behavior is intractable, and the only halfway effective intervention is when I tell them forcefully to stop. Not viciously, but mercilessly direct, and little concession made for their comfort. Although as I write that out, it looks like maybe the issue is that the framing is wrong - it's not empathy vs force, it's more like empathy and force. A question of choosing the right communication strategy for the person and situation. I have no doubt when entitlement is the issue, getting (metaphorically?) punched in the face a couple of times is an important "teaching moment". It's probably not the case that all lessons are best taught like that.
- BrandoElFollito 8y ago
  I think you have a very good point. I do not feel much empathy, except to my children and pets. I am still attached to people but tend to rationalize a lot of things. My wife was diagnosed with MS, zero reaction. I help her to go through that but do not feel any emotion. Her neurologist mentioned that a lot of relationships break out when MS is diagnosed. I can understand this, but cannot comprehend which emotions push people to run away (I know them, just do not understand how one can feel them). My mother was diagnosed with cancer, zero reactions from me. I love her very much, in some weird rational way. I was diagnosed with an auto-immune illness, zero reactions. In that case it was really "zero fucks given" because I did not need to externalize anything. At the same time I like very much to spend time with people and it bringd me joy. So yes, I think it is a matter of spectrum.
mindgam3 8y ago
“Judging by how many people in this comment thread identify with the traits described in the article, it probably just shows that those traits are pretty ordinary” Or it could point to the fact that the traits that make an effective “hacker” (tendency to exploit systems to gain power and control) happen to be the same traits that make an effective sociopath. Broadly speaking, psychopaths exploit social systems while hackers exploit technological systems. But there’s really not much of a barrier. What hackers call “social engineering” is what manipulators and sociopaths would refer to as manipulation. To be clear, I don’t mean to imply that all hackers are sociopaths. Or even that most of them are. It is quite possible to be an extremely effective hacker with a solid moral foundation. “With great power comes great responsibility”, etc. I’m merely trying to encourage some self-awareness in the hacking community.

by ivoras 8y ago

philipov 8y ago

I think people imagine that mental pathologies are differences of kind, but they're actually differences of degree. Every mental pathology exists in a less intense form as a personality disorder, and even weaker as non-pathological personality traits. When we stop demonizing mental illness, it's easy to see those traits in ourselves, but the difference is in how intensely those traits negatively affect our lives. Many people get anxious, and this causes them to look at people with anxiety disorders and think "That's like what I've got. Why don't you just pull yourself out of it?" but what they don't consider is that the difference is one of degree, not of kind.

RobertRoberts 8y ago
>"When we stop demonizing mental illness, it's easy to see those traits in ourselves, but the difference is in how intensely those traits negatively affect our lives." Are all mental traits that affect our lives negatively mental illness? I think it's quite a leap to say that just because you have negative effect in your life from a mental perspective/problem/limitation/etc... doesn't mean it's "illness" that requires a cure. Sometimes it really is "just get over it", if not, then every person I know needs emergency therapy and drugs right now cause they are all ill. If you want to say it's a matter of degree, sure, a valid a argument, but who lets who decide what the degree is? What if the person that says "pull yourself out of it" was affected many hundreds of times worse than the person hearing that advice? Now is degrees a purely personal and relative matter? How many people have heard stories of spoiled rich brats scream bloody murder and acted like they were dying because they didn't get the exact color they wanted in their designer luggage? (replace in the nouns for different scenarios) And conversely, the poor child with nothing, is happy and grateful just to have a little more food at mealtime? "Just get over it" _is_ the answer to the rich brat who wants to wallow when you put it in perspective of others. But from their own perspective, it's the end of the world. (lots of personal experience seeing both sides of this issue)
- philipov 8y ago
  That's my point: the difference between a pathology and a personality trait is merely of degree. A trait in small concentration is beneficial, but if you concentrate it enough, it becomes toxic and we label that a pathology. In between health and pathology is a vast grey area where things get complicated, and people are biased to think everyone else is just acting like a spoiled rich kid.
  - wu-ikkyu 8y ago
    I agree with your premise but would nitpick against calling mental illnesses (in the psychiatric sense) pathologies. >pathology: the science of the causes and effects of diseases, especially the branch of medicine that deals with the laboratory examination of samples of body tissue for diagnostic or forensic purposes. In the words of Allen Frances: "psychiatric diagnosis still relies exclusively on fallible subjective judgments rather than objective biological tests". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Frances There are no known causes for psychiatric illnesses. Once a biological cause is discovered, it is no longer deemed a mental illness, but an actual biological pathology.
- outlace 8y ago
  Is mild hypertension an illness? At some point the dividing line between normal and abnormal is blurry and arbitrary. But there are people with say severe anxiety that impairs their ability to carry out normal daily activities. That’s a mental illness, but is mild social anxiety? Maybe not, but it’s probably not optimal health either. There’s just the best possible life on one end and the worst possible life on the other.
- roflc0ptic 8y ago
  My household has a similar debate around the usefulness of kindness and empathy for changing other people's behavior. My household has several empathetic and caring members, who frequently (and effectively) use those traits to guide other people into better behavior patterns, often just by existing in the same space. On the other hand, sometimes there are dudes whose bad behavior is intractable, and the only halfway effective intervention is when I tell them forcefully to stop. Not viciously, but mercilessly direct, and little concession made for their comfort. Although as I write that out, it looks like maybe the issue is that the framing is wrong - it's not empathy vs force, it's more like empathy and force. A question of choosing the right communication strategy for the person and situation. I have no doubt when entitlement is the issue, getting (metaphorically?) punched in the face a couple of times is an important "teaching moment". It's probably not the case that all lessons are best taught like that.
BrandoElFollito 8y ago
I think you have a very good point. I do not feel much empathy, except to my children and pets. I am still attached to people but tend to rationalize a lot of things. My wife was diagnosed with MS, zero reaction. I help her to go through that but do not feel any emotion. Her neurologist mentioned that a lot of relationships break out when MS is diagnosed. I can understand this, but cannot comprehend which emotions push people to run away (I know them, just do not understand how one can feel them). My mother was diagnosed with cancer, zero reactions from me. I love her very much, in some weird rational way. I was diagnosed with an auto-immune illness, zero reactions. In that case it was really "zero fucks given" because I did not need to externalize anything. At the same time I like very much to spend time with people and it bringd me joy. So yes, I think it is a matter of spectrum.

mindgam3 8y ago

“Judging by how many people in this comment thread identify with the traits described in the article, it probably just shows that those traits are pretty ordinary” Or it could point to the fact that the traits that make an effective “hacker” (tendency to exploit systems to gain power and control) happen to be the same traits that make an effective sociopath. Broadly speaking, psychopaths exploit social systems while hackers exploit technological systems. But there’s really not much of a barrier. What hackers call “social engineering” is what manipulators and sociopaths would refer to as manipulation. To be clear, I don’t mean to imply that all hackers are sociopaths. Or even that most of them are. It is quite possible to be an extremely effective hacker with a solid moral foundation. “With great power comes great responsibility”, etc. I’m merely trying to encourage some self-awareness in the hacking community.