4 ms·

Makes me wonder if a society of 100% psychopaths could function or would fall apart. In that society, there would be no reason to wear a mask and pretend. Every

Makes me wonder if a society of 100% psychopaths could function or would fall apart. In that society, there would be no reason to wear a mask and pretend. Everyone feels (or fails to feel) basically the same way. If you knew that anyone would take advantage of you given the opportunity, then how does society function? Kind of like how the Dark Mirror Universe in Star Trek managed to get so far.

xenadu02 8y ago
> If you knew that anyone would take advantage of you given the opportunity, then how does society function That’s the opposite of what she was saying. From what I could gather, she does trust people, but simply by measuring their actions. I suspect such a society would work the same way: people who demonstrate they can be trusted would receive positive responses. Taking advantage of others would quickly lead to a form of ostracism.
- goatlover 8y ago
  > Taking advantage of others would quickly lead to a form of ostracism. But why would this be the case if everyone in society mostly felt it was okay to take advantage as long as you could get away with it?
icebraining 8y ago
Seems rather like interacting with corporations. I trust them insofar as I trust reputational and legal mechanisms to provide them the incentive to keep their part of the bargain.
- goatlover 8y ago
  Corporations often behave like psychopaths on a large scale. That's the problem with the bottom line being the only thing that really matters to a business.
  - salawat 8y ago
    This. So many people seem to be entirely blind to this dynamic. You can look at a business person and point out "You know browser fingerprinting is a bit like a salesman walking into a User's house and taking a bunch of metrics to send back to base before making a sales pitch right?" Then they look at you horrified by the mental image and say "But it decreases fraud!" The cognitive dissonance is delicious, but our obsession with the Market mediating the worthiness of anything to the point where ethical and moral violations are encouraged as long as they can be hidden is a blight on our society at large.
Moodles 8y ago
This seems like the hawks and doves Nash equilibrium in game theory: http://college.holycross.edu/faculty/kprestwi/behavior/ESS/HvD_intro.html http://college.holycross.edu/faculty/kprestwi/behavior/ESS/H... On one hand you want some doves because they work together well and society is nice, but on the other hand if there’s too doves then hawks will thrive. But if everyone is hawks, then society as a whole doesn’t work as well together. So there’s push and pull of both and in the end the natural equilibrium is mostly doves with some hawks. I suspect this is how it works for psycopaths in society.
- AmericanChopper 8y ago
  I’ve worked in teams comprised entirely of “hawks” that were entirely functional, and incredibly effective. As long as you all share a mission and respect each other then it can be great and involve almost no conflict.
  - Moodles 8y ago
    Probably disagreeing over the meaning of hawk then.
    - AmericanChopper 8y ago
      I’m pretty sure we’re not. They can work very well together as long as they all see each other as competent.
      - TuringTest 8y ago
        Probably. But knowing human condition, that arrangement seems particularly unstable. If there's no emotional bonding, any stumble in competence can throw trust off, and then things may spiral down very fast.
        dasmoth 8y ago
        I’m not convinced it requires empathy to recognise that the occasional stumble from someone with a solid track record doesn’t mean they’re not going to perform well again tomorrow.
seunosewa 8y ago
The society would function like a wildlife habitat with lions, hyenas, leopards, and wild dogs. Like a warzone in Africa or the Middle East. Like a maximum security prison in the US.
imustbeevil 8y ago
This is the same thing Religious people say about Agnostic/Atheists, and the answer is the same. Virtually every desire a human can have is better fulfilled if most people on earth are happy and productive. Whether you want to travel the world, waste away in VR, escape to Mars, or live forever, these pursuits are more achievable if human progress advances. In no future is it better for other people to be unhappy.
- goatlover 8y ago
  > In no future is it better for other people to be unhappy. Then explain why some people are criminals or parasites on the system it it's better for everyone to be happy? Why take advantage of others if it's better overall not to do so? My guess is because some people don't care about others. Psychopaths generally fall into that category. Question is what they would do if they made up all of society, which means everyone is understood to be looking to take advantage.
  - gscott 8y ago
    Unfortunately religion is not widespread enough or practice d enough to support those who commit crimes out of need or desire.
aasasd 8y ago
Pretty sure we evolved the entire tribal cocktail of behaviors specifically to do better than isolated specimens. And the current culture, as in the sum of civilization's achievements, is very much a product of those behaviors and organization permeating the everyday life. Moreover, afaik development of language is hypothesized to be interlinked with social behaviors (and empathy as a whole), so a species of antagonists would probably have trouble establishing civilisation in the first place.

xenadu02 8y ago

> If you knew that anyone would take advantage of you given the opportunity, then how does society function That’s the opposite of what she was saying. From what I could gather, she does trust people, but simply by measuring their actions. I suspect such a society would work the same way: people who demonstrate they can be trusted would receive positive responses. Taking advantage of others would quickly lead to a form of ostracism.

goatlover 8y ago
> Taking advantage of others would quickly lead to a form of ostracism. But why would this be the case if everyone in society mostly felt it was okay to take advantage as long as you could get away with it?

icebraining 8y ago

Seems rather like interacting with corporations. I trust them insofar as I trust reputational and legal mechanisms to provide them the incentive to keep their part of the bargain.

goatlover 8y ago
Corporations often behave like psychopaths on a large scale. That's the problem with the bottom line being the only thing that really matters to a business.
- salawat 8y ago
  This. So many people seem to be entirely blind to this dynamic. You can look at a business person and point out "You know browser fingerprinting is a bit like a salesman walking into a User's house and taking a bunch of metrics to send back to base before making a sales pitch right?" Then they look at you horrified by the mental image and say "But it decreases fraud!" The cognitive dissonance is delicious, but our obsession with the Market mediating the worthiness of anything to the point where ethical and moral violations are encouraged as long as they can be hidden is a blight on our society at large.

Moodles 8y ago

This seems like the hawks and doves Nash equilibrium in game theory: http://college.holycross.edu/faculty/kprestwi/behavior/ESS/HvD_intro.html http://college.holycross.edu/faculty/kprestwi/behavior/ESS/H... On one hand you want some doves because they work together well and society is nice, but on the other hand if there’s too doves then hawks will thrive. But if everyone is hawks, then society as a whole doesn’t work as well together. So there’s push and pull of both and in the end the natural equilibrium is mostly doves with some hawks. I suspect this is how it works for psycopaths in society.

AmericanChopper 8y ago
I’ve worked in teams comprised entirely of “hawks” that were entirely functional, and incredibly effective. As long as you all share a mission and respect each other then it can be great and involve almost no conflict.
- Moodles 8y ago
  Probably disagreeing over the meaning of hawk then.
  - AmericanChopper 8y ago
    I’m pretty sure we’re not. They can work very well together as long as they all see each other as competent.
    - TuringTest 8y ago
      Probably. But knowing human condition, that arrangement seems particularly unstable. If there's no emotional bonding, any stumble in competence can throw trust off, and then things may spiral down very fast.
      - dasmoth 8y ago
        I’m not convinced it requires empathy to recognise that the occasional stumble from someone with a solid track record doesn’t mean they’re not going to perform well again tomorrow.

seunosewa 8y ago

The society would function like a wildlife habitat with lions, hyenas, leopards, and wild dogs. Like a warzone in Africa or the Middle East. Like a maximum security prison in the US.

imustbeevil 8y ago

This is the same thing Religious people say about Agnostic/Atheists, and the answer is the same. Virtually every desire a human can have is better fulfilled if most people on earth are happy and productive. Whether you want to travel the world, waste away in VR, escape to Mars, or live forever, these pursuits are more achievable if human progress advances. In no future is it better for other people to be unhappy.

goatlover 8y ago
> In no future is it better for other people to be unhappy. Then explain why some people are criminals or parasites on the system it it's better for everyone to be happy? Why take advantage of others if it's better overall not to do so? My guess is because some people don't care about others. Psychopaths generally fall into that category. Question is what they would do if they made up all of society, which means everyone is understood to be looking to take advantage.
- gscott 8y ago
  Unfortunately religion is not widespread enough or practice d enough to support those who commit crimes out of need or desire.

aasasd 8y ago

Pretty sure we evolved the entire tribal cocktail of behaviors specifically to do better than isolated specimens. And the current culture, as in the sum of civilization's achievements, is very much a product of those behaviors and organization permeating the everyday life. Moreover, afaik development of language is hypothesized to be interlinked with social behaviors (and empathy as a whole), so a species of antagonists would probably have trouble establishing civilisation in the first place.