8 ms·

Maybe because most Europeans are happy with a good work/life balance, and don't constantly obsess about pipe dreams that come through for one in a million peopl

by l0b0 8y ago

Maybe because most Europeans are happy with a good work/life balance, and don't constantly obsess about pipe dreams that come through for one in a million people? Obviously such obsessives exist, but I bet they are a lot less common than in countries with a, let's say, get big or go home attitude. Also, state funded safety nets means it's less urgent to have $lots saved up to survive the next crisis.

fit2rule 8y ago
>state funded safety nets Ding ding ding: this is the answer: those safety nets are also a cage. Disclaimer: have started many businesses around the world, including the US and Europe. Europeans don't proceed to the glory and glamor of US startups because they have to deal with government bureaucracy, and alas such bureaucracy is contagious. The moment you wade into the grant-getting territory, you become a grant-getter. Grant-getters are anathema to technology-creators and other forms of society-changers.
- Fnoord 8y ago
  You're not really defining the safety nets. It isn't as if the USA has exactly none either. Example [1] If you're referring to the safety net that you get government money after you get unemployed, that's to ensure that you don't become homeless or get lured into crime. It has reinforcement to get you back to work ASAP. [1] https://www.ssa.gov/disability/ https://www.ssa.gov/disability/
  - fit2rule 8y ago
    It also means you don't work as hard to succeed.
    - Fnoord 8y ago
      Or it means you don't get homeless the moment you don't succeed. Those who don't work aren't living in wealth; all they have is basic necessities. The system stimulates people to work. Which, incidentally, is easier when you're not homeless and when you can afford food and toilet paper (which I happen to know you cannot buy with food stamps).
- icebraining 8y ago
  Can you give a flavor of that extra government bureaucracy you had to deal in Europe vis-a-vis the US? And in which European countries was that?
  - fit2rule 8y ago
    Germany, and Austria. Getting a grant in Austria essentially guarantees that the hunger you need to survive in the tech world today will be quenched by that sweet, sweet, government handout.
    - andyroid 8y ago
      You are seriously arguing that the threat of starving is how you want to motivate people to work for you? Sorry but I doubt European bureaucracy is what’s holding your companies back.
      - fit2rule 8y ago
        The threat of starving isn't holding anyone back, and I didn't say anything about the people working for me - however the decadence of having a safety net means fewer real risks are taken, and certainly less responsibility for the basics. It means the people who work for me don't have to work too hard to keep their jobs - after all, the government will take care of them if I have to fire them for under performance. Which happens, quite a lot more in Europe than it ever did in the USA. Americans seem to like to keep their jobs - Europeans couldn't care less.
        detaro 8y ago
        Europeans not caring about keeping their jobs, what? That's so far from reality...
        fit2rule 8y ago
        Hardly. The safety net means they don't have to work so hard at keeping the job, because if they lose it: the government will take care of them. This has knock-on effects all over the organisation.. including productivity issues.
- Annatar 8y ago
  I honestly don't know why you got down-voted for this: I can confirm from first hand experience that everything you wrote is a fact. This place often makes no sense whatsoever in what is considered good or bad.
  - fit2rule 8y ago
    I'm probably being downvoted by folks whose survival depends on that sweet, sweet, government handout. Its okay with me - the point has been made.
  - icebraining 8y ago
    I didn't downvote, but the post is not very informative, at least for someone who doesn't already know what they're talking about, like you. It's not very clear what's the relationship being implied between bureaucracy and grants, which grants are those, or how do they differ between the US vs EU. For reference, I've worked at a couple of EU startups, and we didn't get any grants. It's not like you just get money for incorporating.
    - buboard 8y ago
      I think their point about grant-getters is spot-on. Thousands of companies exist just to apply for EU grants, get them, come up with a half-assed prototype and then quit the project. Unless you have connections in government in which case sometimes you can have a second and third half-assed product. Of course there are also many non-gov-funded startups. However 1) it is demoralizing to see them getting millions in handouts while you struggle to sell a product and 2) they keep many talented employees trapped in deadend-companies.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
sparkling 8y ago
> obsess about pipe dreams that come through for one in a million people? Speaking as someone from Europe... I don't have any first hand experience, but when browsing HN or Reddit, developer salaries above $150k seem to be the norm [1], not the "one in a million people" exception. As you may know, such salaries are unheard in Europe. It seems to me that becoming financially independent in the US is a matter of years [2], not decades. Sometimes it really makes me depressed. Also you seem to overestimate the safety nets. Putting 3-4 months of US paychecks away in a savings account will put you ahead of any safety net in Europe. [1] Yes, i know, cost of living in places like NYC or SF are not comparable to major European cities, but even when factoring higher costs of living, becoming a millionaire seems rather doable. [2] If you don't spend your money lavishly.
- ukoki 8y ago
  > salaries are unheard in Europe This income exists in the UK for contractors. $150k/year is a day-rate of approximately £500/day if you take four weeks off per year. This is slightly higher than the median but reasonably achievable (more so in London). https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/Contract-IT-Job-Market https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/Contract-IT-Job-Market
  - koevet 8y ago
    Same in Switzerland, for contractors (actually more than 150k/year)
    - sparkling 8y ago
      Care to elaborate? What kind of gigs yield that kind of money and how is taxation for freelancers in Switzerland?
      - Annatar 8y ago
        Gigs where people have very specialized knowledge, like SAP consulting, or where they have 20-30 years of system engineering and IT architecting experience. Taxation is low compared to the rest of the world, but since Switzerland is closed off to immigration and currently working on clamping down on it even more with all their might, it's pointless to discuss freelancing there. Which means that freelancers who work there live there, and that in turn means that you get an entire tax bill and have to cash out large sums of money on taxes in one go.
buboard 8y ago
> because most Europeans are happy with a good work/life balance That is the common trope but the truth is there is no other option. There are whole countries which are destined to end up as tourist destinations.
- Annatar 8y ago
  You mean like Croatia? They've had 1000 years of servitude and have only begun their 1000 years long dream of being their own masters. They will have to learn how to do that and it will take them a long time, but they are already on the top in the weapons, pharmaceuticals and auto industries ("HS Produkt", "Belupo", "Pliva" and "Rimac") and might someday become a ship building power once again. They won't be just a tourist destination forever.
  - buboard 8y ago
    Greece
    - candiodari 8y ago
      You can extend that to any place east of Berlin or south of Milan, with the potential exception of Rome.
  - BerislavLopac 8y ago
    Gluposti.

by l0b0 8y ago

fit2rule 8y ago

>state funded safety nets Ding ding ding: this is the answer: those safety nets are also a cage. Disclaimer: have started many businesses around the world, including the US and Europe. Europeans don't proceed to the glory and glamor of US startups because they have to deal with government bureaucracy, and alas such bureaucracy is contagious. The moment you wade into the grant-getting territory, you become a grant-getter. Grant-getters are anathema to technology-creators and other forms of society-changers.

Fnoord 8y ago
You're not really defining the safety nets. It isn't as if the USA has exactly none either. Example [1] If you're referring to the safety net that you get government money after you get unemployed, that's to ensure that you don't become homeless or get lured into crime. It has reinforcement to get you back to work ASAP. [1] https://www.ssa.gov/disability/ https://www.ssa.gov/disability/
- fit2rule 8y ago
  It also means you don't work as hard to succeed.
  - Fnoord 8y ago
    Or it means you don't get homeless the moment you don't succeed. Those who don't work aren't living in wealth; all they have is basic necessities. The system stimulates people to work. Which, incidentally, is easier when you're not homeless and when you can afford food and toilet paper (which I happen to know you cannot buy with food stamps).
icebraining 8y ago
Can you give a flavor of that extra government bureaucracy you had to deal in Europe vis-a-vis the US? And in which European countries was that?
- fit2rule 8y ago
  Germany, and Austria. Getting a grant in Austria essentially guarantees that the hunger you need to survive in the tech world today will be quenched by that sweet, sweet, government handout.
  - andyroid 8y ago
    You are seriously arguing that the threat of starving is how you want to motivate people to work for you? Sorry but I doubt European bureaucracy is what’s holding your companies back.
    - fit2rule 8y ago
      The threat of starving isn't holding anyone back, and I didn't say anything about the people working for me - however the decadence of having a safety net means fewer real risks are taken, and certainly less responsibility for the basics. It means the people who work for me don't have to work too hard to keep their jobs - after all, the government will take care of them if I have to fire them for under performance. Which happens, quite a lot more in Europe than it ever did in the USA. Americans seem to like to keep their jobs - Europeans couldn't care less.
      - detaro 8y ago
        Europeans not caring about keeping their jobs, what? That's so far from reality...
        fit2rule 8y ago
        Hardly. The safety net means they don't have to work so hard at keeping the job, because if they lose it: the government will take care of them. This has knock-on effects all over the organisation.. including productivity issues.
Annatar 8y ago
I honestly don't know why you got down-voted for this: I can confirm from first hand experience that everything you wrote is a fact. This place often makes no sense whatsoever in what is considered good or bad.
- fit2rule 8y ago
  I'm probably being downvoted by folks whose survival depends on that sweet, sweet, government handout. Its okay with me - the point has been made.
- icebraining 8y ago
  I didn't downvote, but the post is not very informative, at least for someone who doesn't already know what they're talking about, like you. It's not very clear what's the relationship being implied between bureaucracy and grants, which grants are those, or how do they differ between the US vs EU. For reference, I've worked at a couple of EU startups, and we didn't get any grants. It's not like you just get money for incorporating.
  - buboard 8y ago
    I think their point about grant-getters is spot-on. Thousands of companies exist just to apply for EU grants, get them, come up with a half-assed prototype and then quit the project. Unless you have connections in government in which case sometimes you can have a second and third half-assed product. Of course there are also many non-gov-funded startups. However 1) it is demoralizing to see them getting millions in handouts while you struggle to sell a product and 2) they keep many talented employees trapped in deadend-companies.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

sparkling 8y ago

> obsess about pipe dreams that come through for one in a million people? Speaking as someone from Europe... I don't have any first hand experience, but when browsing HN or Reddit, developer salaries above $150k seem to be the norm [1], not the "one in a million people" exception. As you may know, such salaries are unheard in Europe. It seems to me that becoming financially independent in the US is a matter of years [2], not decades. Sometimes it really makes me depressed. Also you seem to overestimate the safety nets. Putting 3-4 months of US paychecks away in a savings account will put you ahead of any safety net in Europe. [1] Yes, i know, cost of living in places like NYC or SF are not comparable to major European cities, but even when factoring higher costs of living, becoming a millionaire seems rather doable. [2] If you don't spend your money lavishly.

ukoki 8y ago
> salaries are unheard in Europe This income exists in the UK for contractors. $150k/year is a day-rate of approximately £500/day if you take four weeks off per year. This is slightly higher than the median but reasonably achievable (more so in London). https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/Contract-IT-Job-Market https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/Contract-IT-Job-Market
- koevet 8y ago
  Same in Switzerland, for contractors (actually more than 150k/year)
  - sparkling 8y ago
    Care to elaborate? What kind of gigs yield that kind of money and how is taxation for freelancers in Switzerland?
    - Annatar 8y ago
      Gigs where people have very specialized knowledge, like SAP consulting, or where they have 20-30 years of system engineering and IT architecting experience. Taxation is low compared to the rest of the world, but since Switzerland is closed off to immigration and currently working on clamping down on it even more with all their might, it's pointless to discuss freelancing there. Which means that freelancers who work there live there, and that in turn means that you get an entire tax bill and have to cash out large sums of money on taxes in one go.

buboard 8y ago

> because most Europeans are happy with a good work/life balance That is the common trope but the truth is there is no other option. There are whole countries which are destined to end up as tourist destinations.

Annatar 8y ago
You mean like Croatia? They've had 1000 years of servitude and have only begun their 1000 years long dream of being their own masters. They will have to learn how to do that and it will take them a long time, but they are already on the top in the weapons, pharmaceuticals and auto industries ("HS Produkt", "Belupo", "Pliva" and "Rimac") and might someday become a ship building power once again. They won't be just a tourist destination forever.
- buboard 8y ago
  Greece
  - candiodari 8y ago
    You can extend that to any place east of Berlin or south of Milan, with the potential exception of Rome.
- BerislavLopac 8y ago
  Gluposti.