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Time and time again, I cannot believe people recommend a company that installed spyware in their hardware. I will never ever buy a Lenovo. It doesn't matter th

Time and time again, I cannot believe people recommend a company that installed spyware in their hardware. I will never ever buy a Lenovo. It doesn't matter that it didn't affect the ThinkPad line.

knaik94 8y ago
It's the difference between recommending the consumer line and business line, they are not related technically. Lenovo's consumer line is Ideapad, their business line is Thinkpad. If they tried something similar on a business line, they would go bankrupt because they would never get another contract again. It would fall under Industrial Espionage which is illegal. That's why governments and large corporations still buy Thinkpad.
- perl4ever 8y ago
  You sound awfully confident. This sort of distinction, where you declare something about the world to be certain as a consequence of a certain arbitrary categorization, I have an urge to call "nominative determinism" (although the phrase is generally used differently)
agumonkey 8y ago
If you're tech saavy it's a bit less important. Scamming average consumers is sad, but ThinkPads to me are IBM, not Lenovo, so they have different boxes in my mind. The hardware is good, linux runs nice on it. Case closed.
sofaofthedamned 8y ago
Good for you. There was no spyware in the slightest on my X1.
- mediocrejoker 8y ago
  I think you either missed or ignored the point the parent comment made regarding their reasons for avoiding Lenovo as a company, rather than strictly wishing to avoid spyware in one's own laptop.
  - sofaofthedamned 8y ago
    I didn't miss it. Don't have any care or skin in the game when it comes to Lenovo, but their Thinkpads have never had this crap in there. When they do, i'm out. HP have crap in their installs, so do Dell. Hell, even Microsoft put Candy Crush in there and telemetry I can't uninstall.
- satysin 8y ago
  You checked the Windows Platform Binary Table in the BIOS/UEFI? That was how they delivered their crapware before. Even a clean install with your own media would inject a Lenovo exe into Windows directly from the BIOS with no way to disable it. Scary stuff.
  - sofaofthedamned 8y ago
    Yup. Luckily i've got a friend who knows BIOS stuff like I could never do (Hi Greg) - nothing in there. Besides, it gets Fedora 28 installed and Windows is only used for doing firmware updates. Which tbf Lenovo cocked up a couple of weeks ago and hosed the SSD firmware so it didn't boot. Luckily i'm not a moron so everything was backed up, they sent a new SSD and they picked up the old one to recover, which I assume will be a hardware firmware flash. I don't need the backup, but I am looking forward to Lenovo spending the money for the pickup/flash/delivery to make sure it costs them as much money as possible so they don't do this again. https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/943m9o/x1c6_ssd_fw_nuked_my_machine/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/943m9o/x1c6_ssd_f...
- collyw 8y ago
  That you know about.
  - sofaofthedamned 8y ago
    Good for you. Same goes for every box you use that you don't personally inspect the firmware source code for the NIC, ME, graphics card, USB, Thunderbolt controller, etc. Personally i'll stand on the shoulder of giants (people who do actually inspect this, I don't have the skills) and monitor the shit out of my network instead of worrying about it, because I can actually do that bit.
viraptor 8y ago
Almost every larger company these days has done something bad like that. Lenovo had superfish, HP had a keylogger, Dell had its own superfish, Acer still installs search toolbars and browser hijackers, depending on how far back you want to go Sony had the BMG rootkit and a camera backdoor, ... Who are you going to get your laptop from now of you ignore all of those - especially if you're going to reinstall your OS immediately anyway?
- Bud 8y ago
  Almost every company? Except the one this thread is about...
  - collyw 8y ago
    That we we know about.
    - indemnity 8y ago
      Well that response could be used to justify about any conspiracy theory. How about we stick to the facts we know, which is that all manufacturers but Apple have done these incredibly user hostile things. With the amount of attention on them, if they did it, it’s bound to come out sooner or later. Until then, though..
  - viraptor 8y ago
    I listed other companies which did just as bad things. Why would you trust (for example) Dell more than Lenovo in this case?
    - selectodude 8y ago
      The thread is about Apple.
  - Digital-Citizen 8y ago
    According to https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8912714/Apple-iTunes-flaw-allowed-government-spying-for-3-years.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8912714/Apple-i... "An unpatched security flaw in Apple’s iTunes software allowed intelligence agencies and police to hack into users’ computers for more than three years" which sounds serious to me if you're an iTunes user (as I guess many Mac and Windows users are). But I think the real culprit is that all of the organizations the grandparent poster listed distribute proprietary software which is untrustworthy to begin with. Proprietary malware isn't hard to find (see https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/ https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/ for an organized set of links) whether it came with the OS pre-installed on the computer or installed later. So long as it adversely affects the user and leaves the user with no permission to inspect, alter, and share the software (only permission to run the malware) the situation is bad.
walterbell 8y ago
As recently as 2016, Windows Thinkpads were documented to be sending daily usage data to Lenovo. The app is easily disabled, but users may not be aware of the telemetry. You agreed to this in the EULA. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13300357 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13300357
mirimir 8y ago
What about Apple retaining deleted browsing history in iCloud?[0] 0) https://www.macrumors.com/2017/02/09/icloud-storing-deleted-safari-browser-history/ https://www.macrumors.com/2017/02/09/icloud-storing-deleted-...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
collyw 8y ago
installed spyware on their hardware? Can you explain more?
- kylel 8y ago
  In 2015, Lenovo (who currently owns the Thinkpad brand) got caught installing adware and certificates into the Windows root certificate store. This is known as Superfish: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfish https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfish
dfox 8y ago
You should take into consideration that for both IdeaPad (the superfish one) and ThinkPad Lenovo is not much more than brand. These two lines are designed and manufactured by completely separate corporations. What is somewhat funny in this regard is that the real maker of modern ThinkPads (probably at least since introduction of the letter-number nomenclature) is Acer/Wistron with Acer as a brand being mostly known for having sub-par quality. IdeaPads are AFAIK mostly made by Compal.
- freedomben 8y ago
  I was completely unaware that Acer made ThinkPads, and that blows my mind. A quick google was not able to confirm that, which is not unexpected since that sort of rebranding is usually hushed. Do you have a source? Not saying you need one, but wondering if you already have one. Would be interested to read more. I've had a really bad opinion of Acers since buying one a decade ago, and currently have a high opinion of Thinkpads (and am typing on a 2018 model right now).
  - secabeen 8y ago
    I found it, but it's really obscure. Check this out: 1) You can find a couple of threads where people either say Wistron makes Lenovo Thinkpads, and even one where someone finds the Wistron name on a X1 Carbon box they were shipped: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/x1-carbon-shipping-thread.684799/page-123#post-8914667 http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/x1-carbon-shipping-t... 2) Wistron is a spinoff of Acer. Specifically the Manufacturing/R&D wing of Acer. However, that spinoff happened in 2000, so there really isn't a connection between Acer and Wistron anymore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wistron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wistron This is a nice 2009 article about Wistron: https://www.forbes.com/global/2009/1214/technology-wistron-simon-lin-industrial-innovator.html#5ad504a832dd https://www.forbes.com/global/2009/1214/technology-wistron-s...
    - freedomben 8y ago
      Nice work! Thanks!
- 8y ago
tbrock 8y ago
I don’t use windows. There could be one for Linux but I can’t spent my life worrying about what could be. Gotta get work done eventually and I’ve got encrypted boot and data volume with secureboot. If you have a larger tinfoil hat you can always libreboot an x220.

Time and time again, I cannot believe people recommend a company that installed spyware in their hardware. I will never ever buy a Lenovo. It doesn't matter that it didn't affect the ThinkPad line.

knaik94 8y ago

It's the difference between recommending the consumer line and business line, they are not related technically. Lenovo's consumer line is Ideapad, their business line is Thinkpad. If they tried something similar on a business line, they would go bankrupt because they would never get another contract again. It would fall under Industrial Espionage which is illegal. That's why governments and large corporations still buy Thinkpad.

perl4ever 8y ago
You sound awfully confident. This sort of distinction, where you declare something about the world to be certain as a consequence of a certain arbitrary categorization, I have an urge to call "nominative determinism" (although the phrase is generally used differently)

agumonkey 8y ago

If you're tech saavy it's a bit less important. Scamming average consumers is sad, but ThinkPads to me are IBM, not Lenovo, so they have different boxes in my mind. The hardware is good, linux runs nice on it. Case closed.

sofaofthedamned 8y ago

Good for you. There was no spyware in the slightest on my X1.

mediocrejoker 8y ago
I think you either missed or ignored the point the parent comment made regarding their reasons for avoiding Lenovo as a company, rather than strictly wishing to avoid spyware in one's own laptop.
- sofaofthedamned 8y ago
  I didn't miss it. Don't have any care or skin in the game when it comes to Lenovo, but their Thinkpads have never had this crap in there. When they do, i'm out. HP have crap in their installs, so do Dell. Hell, even Microsoft put Candy Crush in there and telemetry I can't uninstall.
satysin 8y ago
You checked the Windows Platform Binary Table in the BIOS/UEFI? That was how they delivered their crapware before. Even a clean install with your own media would inject a Lenovo exe into Windows directly from the BIOS with no way to disable it. Scary stuff.
- sofaofthedamned 8y ago
  Yup. Luckily i've got a friend who knows BIOS stuff like I could never do (Hi Greg) - nothing in there. Besides, it gets Fedora 28 installed and Windows is only used for doing firmware updates. Which tbf Lenovo cocked up a couple of weeks ago and hosed the SSD firmware so it didn't boot. Luckily i'm not a moron so everything was backed up, they sent a new SSD and they picked up the old one to recover, which I assume will be a hardware firmware flash. I don't need the backup, but I am looking forward to Lenovo spending the money for the pickup/flash/delivery to make sure it costs them as much money as possible so they don't do this again. https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/943m9o/x1c6_ssd_fw_nuked_my_machine/ https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/943m9o/x1c6_ssd_f...
collyw 8y ago
That you know about.
- sofaofthedamned 8y ago
  Good for you. Same goes for every box you use that you don't personally inspect the firmware source code for the NIC, ME, graphics card, USB, Thunderbolt controller, etc. Personally i'll stand on the shoulder of giants (people who do actually inspect this, I don't have the skills) and monitor the shit out of my network instead of worrying about it, because I can actually do that bit.

viraptor 8y ago

Almost every larger company these days has done something bad like that. Lenovo had superfish, HP had a keylogger, Dell had its own superfish, Acer still installs search toolbars and browser hijackers, depending on how far back you want to go Sony had the BMG rootkit and a camera backdoor, ... Who are you going to get your laptop from now of you ignore all of those - especially if you're going to reinstall your OS immediately anyway?

Bud 8y ago
Almost every company? Except the one this thread is about...
- collyw 8y ago
  That we we know about.
  - indemnity 8y ago
    Well that response could be used to justify about any conspiracy theory. How about we stick to the facts we know, which is that all manufacturers but Apple have done these incredibly user hostile things. With the amount of attention on them, if they did it, it’s bound to come out sooner or later. Until then, though..
- viraptor 8y ago
  I listed other companies which did just as bad things. Why would you trust (for example) Dell more than Lenovo in this case?
  - selectodude 8y ago
    The thread is about Apple.
- Digital-Citizen 8y ago
  According to https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8912714/Apple-iTunes-flaw-allowed-government-spying-for-3-years.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/8912714/Apple-i... "An unpatched security flaw in Apple’s iTunes software allowed intelligence agencies and police to hack into users’ computers for more than three years" which sounds serious to me if you're an iTunes user (as I guess many Mac and Windows users are). But I think the real culprit is that all of the organizations the grandparent poster listed distribute proprietary software which is untrustworthy to begin with. Proprietary malware isn't hard to find (see https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/ https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/ for an organized set of links) whether it came with the OS pre-installed on the computer or installed later. So long as it adversely affects the user and leaves the user with no permission to inspect, alter, and share the software (only permission to run the malware) the situation is bad.

walterbell 8y ago

As recently as 2016, Windows Thinkpads were documented to be sending daily usage data to Lenovo. The app is easily disabled, but users may not be aware of the telemetry. You agreed to this in the EULA. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13300357 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13300357

mirimir 8y ago

What about Apple retaining deleted browsing history in iCloud?[0] 0) https://www.macrumors.com/2017/02/09/icloud-storing-deleted-safari-browser-history/ https://www.macrumors.com/2017/02/09/icloud-storing-deleted-...

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

collyw 8y ago

installed spyware on their hardware? Can you explain more?

kylel 8y ago
In 2015, Lenovo (who currently owns the Thinkpad brand) got caught installing adware and certificates into the Windows root certificate store. This is known as Superfish: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfish https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfish

dfox 8y ago

You should take into consideration that for both IdeaPad (the superfish one) and ThinkPad Lenovo is not much more than brand. These two lines are designed and manufactured by completely separate corporations. What is somewhat funny in this regard is that the real maker of modern ThinkPads (probably at least since introduction of the letter-number nomenclature) is Acer/Wistron with Acer as a brand being mostly known for having sub-par quality. IdeaPads are AFAIK mostly made by Compal.

freedomben 8y ago
I was completely unaware that Acer made ThinkPads, and that blows my mind. A quick google was not able to confirm that, which is not unexpected since that sort of rebranding is usually hushed. Do you have a source? Not saying you need one, but wondering if you already have one. Would be interested to read more. I've had a really bad opinion of Acers since buying one a decade ago, and currently have a high opinion of Thinkpads (and am typing on a 2018 model right now).
- secabeen 8y ago
  I found it, but it's really obscure. Check this out: 1) You can find a couple of threads where people either say Wistron makes Lenovo Thinkpads, and even one where someone finds the Wistron name on a X1 Carbon box they were shipped: http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/x1-carbon-shipping-thread.684799/page-123#post-8914667 http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/x1-carbon-shipping-t... 2) Wistron is a spinoff of Acer. Specifically the Manufacturing/R&D wing of Acer. However, that spinoff happened in 2000, so there really isn't a connection between Acer and Wistron anymore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wistron https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wistron This is a nice 2009 article about Wistron: https://www.forbes.com/global/2009/1214/technology-wistron-simon-lin-industrial-innovator.html#5ad504a832dd https://www.forbes.com/global/2009/1214/technology-wistron-s...
  - freedomben 8y ago
    Nice work! Thanks!
8y ago

tbrock 8y ago

I don’t use windows. There could be one for Linux but I can’t spent my life worrying about what could be. Gotta get work done eventually and I’ve got encrypted boot and data volume with secureboot. If you have a larger tinfoil hat you can always libreboot an x220.