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I don't think the humanities departments are particularly successful - but they've been underfunded and horribly hamstrung by political and administrative inter

I don't think the humanities departments are particularly successful - but they've been underfunded and horribly hamstrung by political and administrative interference for about half a century now. It's also not that Shakespeare's going to make anybody a better thinker. It's more that stuff like this sets the tone for the culture in general. If you don't really teach hard, interesting culture, then all the people who might have been interested just get the feeling that culture is kinda garbage and go on to engage with hard interesting ideas in other fields. Which leads to a public culture that's not in any way healthy - one that's really just people passing the time, that doesn't really push us or make us grow. History shows this kind of thing is just incredibly dangerous. If everybody likes culture that's enjoyable and easy, easy, self-satisfied thinking predominates. Then suddenly everybody is marching waving big flags and wearing funny hats, because it's a lot of fun, and makes you feel great to be part of something.

im3w1l 8y ago
> History shows this kind of thing is just incredibly dangerous. If everybody likes culture that's enjoyable and easy, easy, self-satisfied thinking predominates. Then suddenly everybody is marching waving big flags and wearing funny hats, because it's a lot of fun, and makes you feel great to be part of something. Please provide a reference for this. It sounds too much like a just-so story for me to take that at face value.
- Nasrudith 8y ago
  I'm not sure if a citation would make it any better. That line of logic makes me think of the opposite pitfall - that it leads to needless hair-shirted puritanism because anything enjoyable can't possibly be a good thing. "We can't use anesthesia in surgery because the lack of suffering is detrimental to character!" By definition it leads to needless suffering. While knowledge and culture may seem boring or useless in itself (the fine details of long dead Roman politics) it is possible that there are hidden great applications to it in the right situation. Just for two surprising relevance examples Roman gladiatorial archetypes experiencing political correctness after annexing former foes, gladiatorial endorsements, and after the extended war had resulted in consolidation of farms in the hand of slave holding elites past legal limits the idea of land reform or enforcing the existing laws being called 'unRoman'. Science alone has a history of finding bizarre peripheral finds that nobody would have expected. Take an incident that resulted in cattle bleeding to death after routine mild procedures - the source was eventually traced back to fungus affecting their feed. Useful in itself but good only for agronomy. Said fungus was used to produce the first bloodthinner on the market.
  - pasabagi 8y ago
    >anything enjoyable can't possibly be a good thing. I think you're conflating enjoyment, in the sense you enjoy an apple, and enjoyment in the sense you enjoy a painting. It's a really common conflation, mainly because in our society, the dominant culture is enjoyable in the sense an apple is enjoyable. That, for me, is part of the problem. Nobody ever got inspired by eating an apple. Nobody ever learned new forms of empathy, or developed, through appetitive enjoyment.
    - Nasrudith 8y ago
      I think of it in different frameworks personally - than enjoyment - novelty exposure and exploration vs sticking with comfortable and familiar - peripheral to how one receives it (although attitude would influence what and how much is learned). Theoretically appreciative enjoyment could be empathic in a "rags to riches" sense but that could arguably be making the bitterness more palatable while undermining fundamental aspects say the sense of helplessness - even if it shows both ends and cycle of grudges and oppression. I guess it is like Shakespearean "write to please both the groundlings and the noble patrons" - hard to do, let alone properly but if done right offers the potential to create masterpieces. Anyway I can see some point to the arguement personally even if I would phrase it radically differently - and it may not be entirely what you wanted.
- pasabagi 8y ago
  Well, the classic reference is Adorno, "The Culture Industry". But you're right, it is a just-so story. I don't think it's possible to do a fair treatment of the relation between culture and politics in a hundred-word post, and my own limitations have made it still less rigorous. To add some more unrigorous, allusive examples to the mix: the typical Al-Qaeda member is not a imam, but rather an engineer. Technical capability by no means implies ethical capability- so if you imagine a whole society of highly developed technical abilities, and highly under-developed critical capacities, it's a scary thought. And you don't really have to look far into history to find lots of examples. Consider the V2 rocket, for instance. One of the most amazing technical innovations of the century, but equally, utterly pointless on every other level, even the military one. That's the kind of thing that nations with deeply stupid official cultures tied to deeply brilliant technical cultures make.
haihaibye 8y ago
High / difficult culture like Wagner and Nietzsche?

im3w1l 8y ago

> History shows this kind of thing is just incredibly dangerous. If everybody likes culture that's enjoyable and easy, easy, self-satisfied thinking predominates. Then suddenly everybody is marching waving big flags and wearing funny hats, because it's a lot of fun, and makes you feel great to be part of something. Please provide a reference for this. It sounds too much like a just-so story for me to take that at face value.

Nasrudith 8y ago
I'm not sure if a citation would make it any better. That line of logic makes me think of the opposite pitfall - that it leads to needless hair-shirted puritanism because anything enjoyable can't possibly be a good thing. "We can't use anesthesia in surgery because the lack of suffering is detrimental to character!" By definition it leads to needless suffering. While knowledge and culture may seem boring or useless in itself (the fine details of long dead Roman politics) it is possible that there are hidden great applications to it in the right situation. Just for two surprising relevance examples Roman gladiatorial archetypes experiencing political correctness after annexing former foes, gladiatorial endorsements, and after the extended war had resulted in consolidation of farms in the hand of slave holding elites past legal limits the idea of land reform or enforcing the existing laws being called 'unRoman'. Science alone has a history of finding bizarre peripheral finds that nobody would have expected. Take an incident that resulted in cattle bleeding to death after routine mild procedures - the source was eventually traced back to fungus affecting their feed. Useful in itself but good only for agronomy. Said fungus was used to produce the first bloodthinner on the market.
- pasabagi 8y ago
  >anything enjoyable can't possibly be a good thing. I think you're conflating enjoyment, in the sense you enjoy an apple, and enjoyment in the sense you enjoy a painting. It's a really common conflation, mainly because in our society, the dominant culture is enjoyable in the sense an apple is enjoyable. That, for me, is part of the problem. Nobody ever got inspired by eating an apple. Nobody ever learned new forms of empathy, or developed, through appetitive enjoyment.
  - Nasrudith 8y ago
    I think of it in different frameworks personally - than enjoyment - novelty exposure and exploration vs sticking with comfortable and familiar - peripheral to how one receives it (although attitude would influence what and how much is learned). Theoretically appreciative enjoyment could be empathic in a "rags to riches" sense but that could arguably be making the bitterness more palatable while undermining fundamental aspects say the sense of helplessness - even if it shows both ends and cycle of grudges and oppression. I guess it is like Shakespearean "write to please both the groundlings and the noble patrons" - hard to do, let alone properly but if done right offers the potential to create masterpieces. Anyway I can see some point to the arguement personally even if I would phrase it radically differently - and it may not be entirely what you wanted.
pasabagi 8y ago
Well, the classic reference is Adorno, "The Culture Industry". But you're right, it is a just-so story. I don't think it's possible to do a fair treatment of the relation between culture and politics in a hundred-word post, and my own limitations have made it still less rigorous. To add some more unrigorous, allusive examples to the mix: the typical Al-Qaeda member is not a imam, but rather an engineer. Technical capability by no means implies ethical capability- so if you imagine a whole society of highly developed technical abilities, and highly under-developed critical capacities, it's a scary thought. And you don't really have to look far into history to find lots of examples. Consider the V2 rocket, for instance. One of the most amazing technical innovations of the century, but equally, utterly pointless on every other level, even the military one. That's the kind of thing that nations with deeply stupid official cultures tied to deeply brilliant technical cultures make.

haihaibye 8y ago

High / difficult culture like Wagner and Nietzsche?