12 ms·

It may also be the case that negative reviews of movies, TV shows, and stand-up specials did more to dissuade potential viewers than positive reviews did them t

by apo 8y ago

It may also be the case that negative reviews of movies, TV shows, and stand-up specials did more to dissuade potential viewers than positive reviews did them to draw in; ... Netflix's bigger problem is that much of its content looks good on the surface, but on closer inspection is not worth the time. A lot of this stuff is produced by Netflix itself. Bill Nye's most recent show comes to mind, but there's a lot more. Netflix shouldn't have deleted those reviews. It should be using them to clean the junk out of its lineup.

ajmurmann 8y ago
Hah, wouldn't you love it if the junk was removed and one day you log on and you just get a message telling you that you've watched all the stuff the algorithm thinks you'll like and you might as well go do something else?
- MiddleEndian 8y ago
  The one thing I liked most about Netflix back when it was a DVD service was the recommendation system. I could rate things with stars, and Netflix could figure out, with reasonable accuracy, what movies I would consider junk and what I would consider quality, rather than the opinions of the general public. They have some good shows but their streaming movie selection and recommendation system doesn't hold a candle to what they used to have.
  - danmaz74 8y ago
    I remember that in the beginning the recommendations for the streaming service were pretty good. But they became worse and worse, at least for me.
    - smsm42 8y ago
      One has to wonder how comes that recommendations were pretty good, but then they spent millions of dollars on improving them, including highly-publicized competitions and a lot of work inhouse I assume, and not they are not.
      - riffraff 8y ago
        I have movies I have already rated (i.e. watched) in the "watch next" list. Sure, it can happen that I want to watch them again, but it seems unlikely. It seems clear netflix is optimizing for something which is not just "the movie this user would like to watch next".
        taeric 8y ago
        It might seem unlikely to you, but I would be surprised if it wasn't the most common action. Many people will watch the same thing over and over. To that end, training the model in their users, it would not surprise me to have that be an emergent recommendation.
        extra88 8y ago
        Yes, I wish Netflix would hide things I’ve watched more. Obviously if it’s still in My List it should remain, having a Watch it Again section is fine but they should basically disappear from New Releases or lists based on what I liked and be at the end of the list in genre categories.
        smsm42 8y ago
        Yeah I wish Netflix separated "movies that I already watched but maybe will watch again sometime" from "movies I didn't watch yet but want to". And also from "series that I'd want to watch the new season for but don't want in my list until that happens since I am not going to re-watch old seasons". They are almost there but looks like either my watch-flow is somehow weird or they didn't pay attention to how people actually watch things.
      - tjoff 8y ago
        Maybe it is because netflix doesn't host that much good content? When they have you dialed in you've already watched everything worth watching so there is no good content left to recommend.
        CuriousSkeptic 8y ago
        This is the part I don’t understand. Why do they go through so much effort to have me binge watch Netflix. It costs them bandwidth, and it makes me go through the quality stuff quicker. If they instead tried to get me watching just enough to keep the subscription it would be cheaper for them and I would have be more happy with the mean quality of available options
    - tomrod 8y ago
      I reckon internal politics weigh down good ideas.
      - ajmurmann 8y ago
        I've always wondered if they have different incentives around different shows and movies. Clearly they ideally would want everyone to be hooked on their original content, but I wonder if deal structures for other content make watching certain content better for Netflix than others.
      - r00fus 8y ago
        It might have more to do with the content suppliers wanting to get into the same market and competing with Netflix.
    - ballenf 8y ago
      Try starting a new profile under your account and then selectively thumbs-up shows. It was surprisingly effective for me. Also made sure to clean up the watch history on the Netflix website when it got polluted with someone else's stuff or shows that I regretted watching. My experience is that watch history affects the recommendation engine more than thumbs up or down.
  - pmoriarty 8y ago
    Netflix's DVD service is still active. They just hide it under a separate URL: https://dvd.netflix.com https://dvd.netflix.com
    - jxub 8y ago
      Funnily enough, it's unavailable for me at the moment (location: EU).
    - MiddleEndian 8y ago
      At some point, Netflix decided my address was fake and cancelled my account, I never bothered to address it since that seems like a silly way to deal with that scenario.
  - extra88 8y ago
    The disc service still exists, I’m a customer. It still lets users give star ratings and still has user written comments/reviews.
- rorykoehler 8y ago
  That's why i unsubbed. Could never find anything compelling to watch
throwaway76543 8y ago
"Worth the time" is relative. Some people really enjoy shows which other people consider to be "junk." I suspect Netflix realizes this. I don't mind them not being suggested, but I'd be really upset if "junk" shows became unavailable. There's a bunch of popular content which I don't enjoy and I wouldn't be surprised if a sizable portion of content I do consume is "junk" according to popular opinion.
- gist 8y ago
  > Some people really enjoy shows which other people consider to be "junk." A matter of learning to appreciate a genre. For example I like certain types of reality tv which others think is 'stupid'. But first I didn't say all reality tv and also there are things I could point out to show why it is I appreciate it to anyone watching (one is learning from facial expressions at least in people that are not botoxed). By the same token I have no appreciation of sports. I wouldn't call it 'junk' simply because I realize others have learned to really like it. But it's no different than anything else. And the reason most people wouldn't criticize sports is because they see it's widely accepted mainstream. So they are not going to be the one to go out on a limb and call it out. Although they would something else (like shooting guns as a hobby).
  - skinnymuch 8y ago
    Americans will regularly criticize soccer. A lot of people will regularly criticize baseball. Both for being boring or what have you. Sports are definitely not immune. Just more tolerated and accepted as you say because of their sheer popularity and cultural significance.
- paavoova 8y ago
  Perhaps it's relative as far as entertainment value is concerned, but not as far as artistic merit is. I for one don't enjoy wading through an endless stream of consumerist drivel helmed by yes-people who just want their big break, or who otherwise are simply involved for the pay and career. >I suspect Netflix realizes this Yes, because they collect all kinds of user data and have statistics to back up viewership and retention. E.g. the Adam Sandler films they produced come to mind. I don't think anyone would claim they're worthwhile films, but nonetheless Netflix has stated they got lots of views, which is important for their platform, especially to quantify investment returns. My theory is that since Netflix is global, foreign audiences further skew the quality:views statistics, as many such countries' media is dominated by Western media, and "Western" may very well be enough to make it appealing simply because it contrasts with domestic media and arts. But I suppose the West does this as well by awarding an Oscar to the "Best Foreign Film" that might very well not be as acclaimed or otherwise not viewed as such in its own country.
always_good 8y ago
I don't see the upside for Netflix shrinking its catalog. I regularly watch Spanish junk shows to practice the language. And I like particularly bad horror movies when I want some background noise rather than wasting a good movie on background noise. The problem of junk shows diluting the good shoes would be a UI problem.
scarface74 8y ago
Well, maybe since Netflix has viewing data, knows how often a show is watched to completion, and over 125 million paying subscribers and some sort of multiple of actual users per account, could it possibly be that they have more of an insight into what is “junk” than someone looking in from the outside?
- jjoonathan 8y ago
  Of course they do, but the post you replied to did not accuse them of ignorance.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    Netflix's bigger problem is that much of its content looks good on the surface, but on closer inspection is not worth the time. What’s not “worth the time” to one person doesn’t matter. Netflix has enough aggregate data to know what type of content keeps people on versus how much it costs to acquire the content. The only content that would be “junk” to Netflix is content that doesn’t engage enough viewers to keep down churn.
    - tomrod 8y ago
      One problem may be inability to fully articulate genre enjoyment segmentation relative to classification , so that aggregate moves result in a worse results overall.
- tajen 8y ago
  > 125 million paying subscribers And, for any given subscriber, only ~15 quality movies and ~25 quality series (although only seasons up to 2 years ago, I’m looking at you, Sherlock). It might be harder than expected to recommend « what to watch next » using artificial intelligence or statistics, when you have to rotate on max 50 items (and less than 8.000 per country, counting every episode of every show).
- tedunangst 8y ago
  Not everyone will stop watching a bad movie midway through, even if they don't like it.
pmoriarty 8y ago
The selection on Netflix's streaming service is atrocious. Their DVD service ( https://dvd.netflix.com https://dvd.netflix.com ) is far, far superior. All the user reviews are still up on there too, for now.
- humanrebar 8y ago
  That's overstating things. They put a bunch of Scorsese movies up this summer. Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee is pretty great. That's just for instance. Maybe you've seen everything, but that doesn't mean the content is garbage.
- cosmosa 8y ago
  It may seem like the selection is terrible on the streaming service, but I think a lot of content is just hard to find.
hellofunk 8y ago
Netflix is in the game of "filler" content. They will make money even if the content is mediocre because (many) people will turn to Netflix even if the quality is not stellar. That's unfortunate but a reality of the business model. If it didn't work, they wouldn't keep making lots of crap.
- tajen 8y ago
  I’ve switched to Amazon Prime. Not better. I might try the other competitors soon, but all in all, only Torrents have a decent catalog.
- mcguire 8y ago
  You pay per month, not per view.
- wool_gather 8y ago
  > (many) people will turn to Netflix even if the quality is not stellar Absolutely. Just like the television programming that Netflix is in the process of replacing!
flylib 8y ago
Given Netflix's investment in content, they will be not removing it anytime soon as it fills their library but removing the third party content once licensing fees are up, eventually it will be mostly just netflix original content on the platform and the more the better
trgv 8y ago
Whether a show, book, movie, song, etc is "worth the time" is entirely subjective. There are million dollar franchises based on material that I don't consider worth my time. But you better believe that stuff is worth Netflix's time. A perfect example of this is "Bright," a netflix movie that was critically panned. But people watched it. And now they're making "Bright 2". Are you really suggesting that Netflix should stop making movies that people want to see because critics (professional or otherwise) dislike them? Two things people need to keep mind: a). There's no objective way to judge this stuff. b). The existence of movies like "Bright" does not prevent "high quality films" from being made. Werner Herzog, Kelly Reichardt, Wong Kar Wai, Michael Haneke, Mia Hanson-Love, etc can keep making movies whether or not "Bright" keeps getting made over and over again. Both kinds of movies have their audience, and that's fine.
- ABCLAW 8y ago
  Netflix funnels people towards their own properties in the hope of raising the value of their new IP and network. Some are hits. Some are misses. People watching Bright doesn't mean people, on the whole, liked Bright. Making a Bright 2 might just mean that making another was the easiest and cheapest way they had to honour Will Smith's contract, which may have primarily been inked to keep Will Smith out of putting together exclusive content for other streaming services he was in talks with. The idea that the quality of the content itself is the end-all of the business decision to fund a series or movie is misguided. Regardless, this misses the point. Consumers are right to push back against lowered content standards, and opaque business choices don't trump that. If Bright was actually good, it would have been fans that were clamouring for Bright 2. They weren't. The fact that good money is following bad doesn't mean the series is suddenly a success.
- taurath 8y ago
  Recent Adam Sandler movies are a great example - he makes huge money off of small budgets and people watch them.
- wutbrodo 8y ago
  None of this is relevant though. You're comparing critical acclaim with the opinion of the masses, while what's being discussed is the reaction of the masses based on pre-viewing marketing (views) vs the reaction of the masses _after_ having seen the movie (reviews). You conjured the objection to professional critics out of whole cloth to bolster the weak argument that the opinion of the masses who've watched the movie in question is not _precisely_ what they should be optimizing for. Views that a user is dissatisfied with is obviously not good for the user. While just as directly profitable for Netflix, it's also something they should seek to minimize in favor of satisfied views (ie views that would lead to good reviews), as it can be a leading indicator for "I don't like much of what I watch on Netflix" --> "I'm going to watch less Netflix". The latter is obviously not something Netflix wants, both in terms of ability to acquire content and potential loss of subscriptions on the margins.
rev0lutions 8y ago
ya their content is trash and they're tryna hide it
mcguire 8y ago
Much of their current content is Chinese (much of which doesn't translate well, although I kind of like the Australian version of the Monkey King story), Korean (which is often quite good), and strange Malaysian things.
flamtap 8y ago
One reason I think Netflix has a lot of those 1-season, low budget, 4-8 episode flops is that producing them is a lot lower risk. Unlike a TV network, they don't have to take up time that could be filled by something else, nor do they have to lose money on advertising slots to promote it. And if the show flops, they have no real reason not to keep it up on the site. For a Netflix-produced show, the first season is almost like an extended pilot who's only judge is the viewership instead of some network executives.
thatjsguy 8y ago
I like the part where they silently remove shows, but very publicly announce all of the wonderful additions they’ve made to their selection in the past month.
konschubert 8y ago
Some A/B testing maybe told them that no reviews create higher engagement. They probably decrease long time customer satisfaction and drive them to other platforms, but hey, who cares, you can't measure that.

by apo 8y ago

ajmurmann 8y ago

Hah, wouldn't you love it if the junk was removed and one day you log on and you just get a message telling you that you've watched all the stuff the algorithm thinks you'll like and you might as well go do something else?

MiddleEndian 8y ago
The one thing I liked most about Netflix back when it was a DVD service was the recommendation system. I could rate things with stars, and Netflix could figure out, with reasonable accuracy, what movies I would consider junk and what I would consider quality, rather than the opinions of the general public. They have some good shows but their streaming movie selection and recommendation system doesn't hold a candle to what they used to have.
- danmaz74 8y ago
  I remember that in the beginning the recommendations for the streaming service were pretty good. But they became worse and worse, at least for me.
  - smsm42 8y ago
    One has to wonder how comes that recommendations were pretty good, but then they spent millions of dollars on improving them, including highly-publicized competitions and a lot of work inhouse I assume, and not they are not.
    - riffraff 8y ago
      I have movies I have already rated (i.e. watched) in the "watch next" list. Sure, it can happen that I want to watch them again, but it seems unlikely. It seems clear netflix is optimizing for something which is not just "the movie this user would like to watch next".
      - taeric 8y ago
        It might seem unlikely to you, but I would be surprised if it wasn't the most common action. Many people will watch the same thing over and over. To that end, training the model in their users, it would not surprise me to have that be an emergent recommendation.
      - extra88 8y ago
        Yes, I wish Netflix would hide things I’ve watched more. Obviously if it’s still in My List it should remain, having a Watch it Again section is fine but they should basically disappear from New Releases or lists based on what I liked and be at the end of the list in genre categories.
      - smsm42 8y ago
        Yeah I wish Netflix separated "movies that I already watched but maybe will watch again sometime" from "movies I didn't watch yet but want to". And also from "series that I'd want to watch the new season for but don't want in my list until that happens since I am not going to re-watch old seasons". They are almost there but looks like either my watch-flow is somehow weird or they didn't pay attention to how people actually watch things.
    - tjoff 8y ago
      Maybe it is because netflix doesn't host that much good content? When they have you dialed in you've already watched everything worth watching so there is no good content left to recommend.
      - CuriousSkeptic 8y ago
        This is the part I don’t understand. Why do they go through so much effort to have me binge watch Netflix. It costs them bandwidth, and it makes me go through the quality stuff quicker. If they instead tried to get me watching just enough to keep the subscription it would be cheaper for them and I would have be more happy with the mean quality of available options
  - tomrod 8y ago
    I reckon internal politics weigh down good ideas.
    - ajmurmann 8y ago
      I've always wondered if they have different incentives around different shows and movies. Clearly they ideally would want everyone to be hooked on their original content, but I wonder if deal structures for other content make watching certain content better for Netflix than others.
    - r00fus 8y ago
      It might have more to do with the content suppliers wanting to get into the same market and competing with Netflix.
  - ballenf 8y ago
    Try starting a new profile under your account and then selectively thumbs-up shows. It was surprisingly effective for me. Also made sure to clean up the watch history on the Netflix website when it got polluted with someone else's stuff or shows that I regretted watching. My experience is that watch history affects the recommendation engine more than thumbs up or down.
- pmoriarty 8y ago
  Netflix's DVD service is still active. They just hide it under a separate URL: https://dvd.netflix.com https://dvd.netflix.com
  - jxub 8y ago
    Funnily enough, it's unavailable for me at the moment (location: EU).
  - MiddleEndian 8y ago
    At some point, Netflix decided my address was fake and cancelled my account, I never bothered to address it since that seems like a silly way to deal with that scenario.
- extra88 8y ago
  The disc service still exists, I’m a customer. It still lets users give star ratings and still has user written comments/reviews.
rorykoehler 8y ago
That's why i unsubbed. Could never find anything compelling to watch

throwaway76543 8y ago

"Worth the time" is relative. Some people really enjoy shows which other people consider to be "junk." I suspect Netflix realizes this. I don't mind them not being suggested, but I'd be really upset if "junk" shows became unavailable. There's a bunch of popular content which I don't enjoy and I wouldn't be surprised if a sizable portion of content I do consume is "junk" according to popular opinion.

gist 8y ago
> Some people really enjoy shows which other people consider to be "junk." A matter of learning to appreciate a genre. For example I like certain types of reality tv which others think is 'stupid'. But first I didn't say all reality tv and also there are things I could point out to show why it is I appreciate it to anyone watching (one is learning from facial expressions at least in people that are not botoxed). By the same token I have no appreciation of sports. I wouldn't call it 'junk' simply because I realize others have learned to really like it. But it's no different than anything else. And the reason most people wouldn't criticize sports is because they see it's widely accepted mainstream. So they are not going to be the one to go out on a limb and call it out. Although they would something else (like shooting guns as a hobby).
- skinnymuch 8y ago
  Americans will regularly criticize soccer. A lot of people will regularly criticize baseball. Both for being boring or what have you. Sports are definitely not immune. Just more tolerated and accepted as you say because of their sheer popularity and cultural significance.
paavoova 8y ago
Perhaps it's relative as far as entertainment value is concerned, but not as far as artistic merit is. I for one don't enjoy wading through an endless stream of consumerist drivel helmed by yes-people who just want their big break, or who otherwise are simply involved for the pay and career. >I suspect Netflix realizes this Yes, because they collect all kinds of user data and have statistics to back up viewership and retention. E.g. the Adam Sandler films they produced come to mind. I don't think anyone would claim they're worthwhile films, but nonetheless Netflix has stated they got lots of views, which is important for their platform, especially to quantify investment returns. My theory is that since Netflix is global, foreign audiences further skew the quality:views statistics, as many such countries' media is dominated by Western media, and "Western" may very well be enough to make it appealing simply because it contrasts with domestic media and arts. But I suppose the West does this as well by awarding an Oscar to the "Best Foreign Film" that might very well not be as acclaimed or otherwise not viewed as such in its own country.

always_good 8y ago

I don't see the upside for Netflix shrinking its catalog. I regularly watch Spanish junk shows to practice the language. And I like particularly bad horror movies when I want some background noise rather than wasting a good movie on background noise. The problem of junk shows diluting the good shoes would be a UI problem.

scarface74 8y ago

Well, maybe since Netflix has viewing data, knows how often a show is watched to completion, and over 125 million paying subscribers and some sort of multiple of actual users per account, could it possibly be that they have more of an insight into what is “junk” than someone looking in from the outside?

jjoonathan 8y ago
Of course they do, but the post you replied to did not accuse them of ignorance.
- scarface74 8y ago
  Netflix's bigger problem is that much of its content looks good on the surface, but on closer inspection is not worth the time. What’s not “worth the time” to one person doesn’t matter. Netflix has enough aggregate data to know what type of content keeps people on versus how much it costs to acquire the content. The only content that would be “junk” to Netflix is content that doesn’t engage enough viewers to keep down churn.
  - tomrod 8y ago
    One problem may be inability to fully articulate genre enjoyment segmentation relative to classification , so that aggregate moves result in a worse results overall.
tajen 8y ago
> 125 million paying subscribers And, for any given subscriber, only ~15 quality movies and ~25 quality series (although only seasons up to 2 years ago, I’m looking at you, Sherlock). It might be harder than expected to recommend « what to watch next » using artificial intelligence or statistics, when you have to rotate on max 50 items (and less than 8.000 per country, counting every episode of every show).
tedunangst 8y ago
Not everyone will stop watching a bad movie midway through, even if they don't like it.

pmoriarty 8y ago

The selection on Netflix's streaming service is atrocious. Their DVD service ( https://dvd.netflix.com https://dvd.netflix.com ) is far, far superior. All the user reviews are still up on there too, for now.

humanrebar 8y ago
That's overstating things. They put a bunch of Scorsese movies up this summer. Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee is pretty great. That's just for instance. Maybe you've seen everything, but that doesn't mean the content is garbage.
cosmosa 8y ago
It may seem like the selection is terrible on the streaming service, but I think a lot of content is just hard to find.

hellofunk 8y ago

Netflix is in the game of "filler" content. They will make money even if the content is mediocre because (many) people will turn to Netflix even if the quality is not stellar. That's unfortunate but a reality of the business model. If it didn't work, they wouldn't keep making lots of crap.

tajen 8y ago
I’ve switched to Amazon Prime. Not better. I might try the other competitors soon, but all in all, only Torrents have a decent catalog.
mcguire 8y ago
You pay per month, not per view.
wool_gather 8y ago
> (many) people will turn to Netflix even if the quality is not stellar Absolutely. Just like the television programming that Netflix is in the process of replacing!

flylib 8y ago

Given Netflix's investment in content, they will be not removing it anytime soon as it fills their library but removing the third party content once licensing fees are up, eventually it will be mostly just netflix original content on the platform and the more the better

trgv 8y ago

Whether a show, book, movie, song, etc is "worth the time" is entirely subjective. There are million dollar franchises based on material that I don't consider worth my time. But you better believe that stuff is worth Netflix's time. A perfect example of this is "Bright," a netflix movie that was critically panned. But people watched it. And now they're making "Bright 2". Are you really suggesting that Netflix should stop making movies that people want to see because critics (professional or otherwise) dislike them? Two things people need to keep mind: a). There's no objective way to judge this stuff. b). The existence of movies like "Bright" does not prevent "high quality films" from being made. Werner Herzog, Kelly Reichardt, Wong Kar Wai, Michael Haneke, Mia Hanson-Love, etc can keep making movies whether or not "Bright" keeps getting made over and over again. Both kinds of movies have their audience, and that's fine.

ABCLAW 8y ago
Netflix funnels people towards their own properties in the hope of raising the value of their new IP and network. Some are hits. Some are misses. People watching Bright doesn't mean people, on the whole, liked Bright. Making a Bright 2 might just mean that making another was the easiest and cheapest way they had to honour Will Smith's contract, which may have primarily been inked to keep Will Smith out of putting together exclusive content for other streaming services he was in talks with. The idea that the quality of the content itself is the end-all of the business decision to fund a series or movie is misguided. Regardless, this misses the point. Consumers are right to push back against lowered content standards, and opaque business choices don't trump that. If Bright was actually good, it would have been fans that were clamouring for Bright 2. They weren't. The fact that good money is following bad doesn't mean the series is suddenly a success.
taurath 8y ago
Recent Adam Sandler movies are a great example - he makes huge money off of small budgets and people watch them.
wutbrodo 8y ago
None of this is relevant though. You're comparing critical acclaim with the opinion of the masses, while what's being discussed is the reaction of the masses based on pre-viewing marketing (views) vs the reaction of the masses _after_ having seen the movie (reviews). You conjured the objection to professional critics out of whole cloth to bolster the weak argument that the opinion of the masses who've watched the movie in question is not _precisely_ what they should be optimizing for. Views that a user is dissatisfied with is obviously not good for the user. While just as directly profitable for Netflix, it's also something they should seek to minimize in favor of satisfied views (ie views that would lead to good reviews), as it can be a leading indicator for "I don't like much of what I watch on Netflix" --> "I'm going to watch less Netflix". The latter is obviously not something Netflix wants, both in terms of ability to acquire content and potential loss of subscriptions on the margins.

rev0lutions 8y ago

ya their content is trash and they're tryna hide it

mcguire 8y ago

Much of their current content is Chinese (much of which doesn't translate well, although I kind of like the Australian version of the Monkey King story), Korean (which is often quite good), and strange Malaysian things.

flamtap 8y ago

One reason I think Netflix has a lot of those 1-season, low budget, 4-8 episode flops is that producing them is a lot lower risk. Unlike a TV network, they don't have to take up time that could be filled by something else, nor do they have to lose money on advertising slots to promote it. And if the show flops, they have no real reason not to keep it up on the site. For a Netflix-produced show, the first season is almost like an extended pilot who's only judge is the viewership instead of some network executives.

thatjsguy 8y ago

I like the part where they silently remove shows, but very publicly announce all of the wonderful additions they’ve made to their selection in the past month.

konschubert 8y ago

Some A/B testing maybe told them that no reviews create higher engagement. They probably decrease long time customer satisfaction and drive them to other platforms, but hey, who cares, you can't measure that.