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Putting things on satellites might mean very different things. There is close to zero chance of anything critical being in Rust. One company I worked on has not

by Baal 8y ago

Putting things on satellites might mean very different things. There is close to zero chance of anything critical being in Rust. One company I worked on has not even move from (a subset of) C90 for critical components. No C99, no C11, no C++03 and no Rust. It is likely that a company may have software in Rust, even running in a satellite module (though unlikely), but that is different than actual satellite systems being certified on Rust. As for the rest of your argument: in many companies people is still moving to C11 or C++11. For many, software is considered for production only if it has been 5 years in the wild. A library appearing on cargo does not mean it is “available”.

steveklabnik 8y ago
The talk had a diagram, most components on it were in Rust, and the plan is to use more and more moving forward. Even critical stuff.
- Baal 8y ago
  Happy to hear that, since I am not exactly in joy of using ancient languages. However, from plans to actual usage takes years; specially for completely new projects using new languages, compilers, libraries, etc. in safety-critical stuff, that takes months just to validate. Stating anything else is just either lying (marketing) or ignorance. Please do not do a disservice to your language by creating vacuous hype.
  - steveklabnik 8y ago
    That was also a significant part of the talk. Like any industry, some shops are conservative, and some aren’t. Pointing out that some places are more liberal than others isn’t lying.
    - Baal 8y ago
      It seems you don’t understand (or more likely you don’t want to understand). In some industries, companies _must_ be conservative by regulation or by contract: it is _not_ a choice. Trying to sell Rust by saying it is used “in satellites” is simply a PR stunt, and one that discredits your other work. Prove Rust is controlling critical systems _today_ (the kind that requires paperwork to be signed or insurances to be paid). Otherwise, please stop spreading bullshit.
      - steveklabnik 8y ago
        > (or more likely you don’t want to understand) I'm not really gonna bother to reply when there's accusations like this. I do understand everything you're saying. We're not in disagreement about the context. I (or more accurately, bluejekyll, we're talking about the same thing) did provide such a citation, you can take it or leave it.
      - dang 8y ago
        Personal attacks will get you banned here. Programming language flamewars are also definitely not welcome. Please don't post like this to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        Baal 8y ago
        I don’t see any personal attack. Can you quote? I don’t even know nor care about the identity of people here. As for flamewars, what are you even talking about? I have not said a single thing in favour of any language. Have you read the thread?
        dang 8y ago
        This is a personal attack: "It seems you don’t understand (or more likely you don’t want to understand)." This is bullying: "Prove Rust is controlling critical systems _today_ ". And this breaks the site guideline against calling names in arguments, as well as returning to personal attack: "Otherwise, please stop spreading bullshit". Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Your comments need to be considerably more respectful if you want to keep posting here. There are plenty of ways to express your views about programming languages thoughtfully, including if you disagree with someone. It's not hard, if you take the spirit of this site to heart. We'd appreciate it if you'd do that.
        Baal 8y ago
        Well, it seems you consider a “personal attack” any comment directed to another person, even if it is meaningful for the discussion and in-context. Your own guidelines ask for maintaining an identity (“On HN, users should have an identity that others can relate to.”); yet you don’t want any comments questioning anyone. As for the rest: I don’t see how asking for proof can be considered “bullying”. Please review the definition of bullying, because you are trivializing it and therefore hurting actual victims of bullying. Thank you on behalf of them. Finally, since it seems HN are in the business of deleting fair comments, I will leave the site and do my best warn others of what is happening here. Good luck.
bluejekyll 8y ago
Here’s the company and product for the sat reference: https://www.kubos.com/kubos/ https://www.kubos.com/kubos/ > For many, software is considered for production only if it has been 5 years in the wild. Time is irrelevant, it’s about usage and stability. Every rust crate I rely on has published download numbers, which give you an idea of number of people using it. In that set, they are all open source and published on GitHub or Gitlab, so I can look at the codebases easily. You can wait, that’s fine. But you do end up missing out on helping shape a new environment that is growing at crazy rates over the last few years.
- Baal 8y ago
  Sorry but that company/product looks like it is a Linux distro and framework tuned/supported for satellite hardware. That does not mean it controls the satellite nor that it is certified. If you think “download numbers” (or open source, or being in GitHub) is a good metric for measuring reliability, it means you haven’t really worked in any such field. It isn’t growing _at all_ in many fields, because it is simply way too new (no new software projects started on it), it isn’t certified (or even impossible to certify). That does not mean it is not better, so don’t take that as an attack. It is simply a suicide in risk-analysis to use a new language, new libraries and new compiler front-end in safety-critical projects; so it is a no-go. Similarly for C11, C++14, C++17 and many other languages, frameworks and libraries that you have to approve.
  - bluejekyll 8y ago
    > If you think “download numbers” (or open source, or being in GitHub) is a good metric for measuring reliability, it means you haven’t really worked in any such field. I never have worked in such a field, and you're comments about certification, etc, are definitely things I will accept as true. Getting any support of new technology in any space is hard, and of course takes time. But, I will say that "download numbers" where there is obvious sustained usage of a project is a stand-in for understanding if something is seeing real-world usage. I don't claim that it show stability, only that if it's usage is high and the number of issues on the project are not growing under that strain then you can begin to get a picture of it's stability. When you talk about formal proofs, certification, etc. Those are different mechanisms for validating that, but generally requires substantial amounts of money to be done.

by Baal 8y ago

steveklabnik 8y ago

The talk had a diagram, most components on it were in Rust, and the plan is to use more and more moving forward. Even critical stuff.

Baal 8y ago
Happy to hear that, since I am not exactly in joy of using ancient languages. However, from plans to actual usage takes years; specially for completely new projects using new languages, compilers, libraries, etc. in safety-critical stuff, that takes months just to validate. Stating anything else is just either lying (marketing) or ignorance. Please do not do a disservice to your language by creating vacuous hype.
- steveklabnik 8y ago
  That was also a significant part of the talk. Like any industry, some shops are conservative, and some aren’t. Pointing out that some places are more liberal than others isn’t lying.
  - Baal 8y ago
    It seems you don’t understand (or more likely you don’t want to understand). In some industries, companies _must_ be conservative by regulation or by contract: it is _not_ a choice. Trying to sell Rust by saying it is used “in satellites” is simply a PR stunt, and one that discredits your other work. Prove Rust is controlling critical systems _today_ (the kind that requires paperwork to be signed or insurances to be paid). Otherwise, please stop spreading bullshit.
    - steveklabnik 8y ago
      > (or more likely you don’t want to understand) I'm not really gonna bother to reply when there's accusations like this. I do understand everything you're saying. We're not in disagreement about the context. I (or more accurately, bluejekyll, we're talking about the same thing) did provide such a citation, you can take it or leave it.
    - dang 8y ago
      Personal attacks will get you banned here. Programming language flamewars are also definitely not welcome. Please don't post like this to HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - Baal 8y ago
        I don’t see any personal attack. Can you quote? I don’t even know nor care about the identity of people here. As for flamewars, what are you even talking about? I have not said a single thing in favour of any language. Have you read the thread?
        dang 8y ago
        This is a personal attack: "It seems you don’t understand (or more likely you don’t want to understand)." This is bullying: "Prove Rust is controlling critical systems _today_ ". And this breaks the site guideline against calling names in arguments, as well as returning to personal attack: "Otherwise, please stop spreading bullshit". Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Your comments need to be considerably more respectful if you want to keep posting here. There are plenty of ways to express your views about programming languages thoughtfully, including if you disagree with someone. It's not hard, if you take the spirit of this site to heart. We'd appreciate it if you'd do that.
        Baal 8y ago
        Well, it seems you consider a “personal attack” any comment directed to another person, even if it is meaningful for the discussion and in-context. Your own guidelines ask for maintaining an identity (“On HN, users should have an identity that others can relate to.”); yet you don’t want any comments questioning anyone. As for the rest: I don’t see how asking for proof can be considered “bullying”. Please review the definition of bullying, because you are trivializing it and therefore hurting actual victims of bullying. Thank you on behalf of them. Finally, since it seems HN are in the business of deleting fair comments, I will leave the site and do my best warn others of what is happening here. Good luck.

bluejekyll 8y ago

Here’s the company and product for the sat reference: https://www.kubos.com/kubos/ https://www.kubos.com/kubos/ > For many, software is considered for production only if it has been 5 years in the wild. Time is irrelevant, it’s about usage and stability. Every rust crate I rely on has published download numbers, which give you an idea of number of people using it. In that set, they are all open source and published on GitHub or Gitlab, so I can look at the codebases easily. You can wait, that’s fine. But you do end up missing out on helping shape a new environment that is growing at crazy rates over the last few years.

Baal 8y ago
Sorry but that company/product looks like it is a Linux distro and framework tuned/supported for satellite hardware. That does not mean it controls the satellite nor that it is certified. If you think “download numbers” (or open source, or being in GitHub) is a good metric for measuring reliability, it means you haven’t really worked in any such field. It isn’t growing _at all_ in many fields, because it is simply way too new (no new software projects started on it), it isn’t certified (or even impossible to certify). That does not mean it is not better, so don’t take that as an attack. It is simply a suicide in risk-analysis to use a new language, new libraries and new compiler front-end in safety-critical projects; so it is a no-go. Similarly for C11, C++14, C++17 and many other languages, frameworks and libraries that you have to approve.
- bluejekyll 8y ago
  > If you think “download numbers” (or open source, or being in GitHub) is a good metric for measuring reliability, it means you haven’t really worked in any such field. I never have worked in such a field, and you're comments about certification, etc, are definitely things I will accept as true. Getting any support of new technology in any space is hard, and of course takes time. But, I will say that "download numbers" where there is obvious sustained usage of a project is a stand-in for understanding if something is seeing real-world usage. I don't claim that it show stability, only that if it's usage is high and the number of issues on the project are not growing under that strain then you can begin to get a picture of it's stability. When you talk about formal proofs, certification, etc. Those are different mechanisms for validating that, but generally requires substantial amounts of money to be done.