5 ms·

I speak as an immigrant. I see a lot of comments not being too kind to people who aren't welcoming of immigrants. As a person, I actually do understand. Not eve

I speak as an immigrant. I see a lot of comments not being too kind to people who aren't welcoming of immigrants. As a person, I actually do understand. Not everyone is going to like me. As an African I do wish some of this energy would be directed to the African leaders that make their countries so terrible that someone feels it is better to jump on a rickety boat in search of a better life. These African "leaders" send their kids to school in the west, they go to the west when sick. I wish all this energy against people who don't want immigrants is directed at the people who made us immigrants in the first place. My first choice is a return to my country.

tinktank 8y ago
It's much easier to hate on an individual in front of you than a president, policy, regime or country (and takes less effort). The bigger grind for me is that the same countries (UK in particular) hammering citizens from those countries welcome leaders with open arms and provide them with refuge, the ability to buy sheltered properties etc. The UKG loves nothing or nobody but money, I just wish they would be upfront about it so their policies were consistent with their actions.
- mmsimanga 8y ago
  100% with you. At some point, someone has to ask who/what is causing the immigrants. I know the answer isn't simple. Some will even say the West is caused all the issues in the first place. At some point though we have to start discussing concrete ways of changing the status quos and moving forward. Changing UK immigration laws might help a few of us get into the UK but not much will change in the home country. The same African dictators rigging elections are allowed to vote on UN resolutions and make grandstanding speeches at global conventions.
  - tinktank 8y ago
    Yes, that's the point I'm making. The west maintains the status quo because it's of benefit to them, they just don't want any of the side-effects (including increased migration). Colonization hasn't gone away, it's just changed form.
    - teknico 8y ago
      Downvoting reality does not make it less so, people.
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  I think you can also look at things aside from money. Education and wealth also tend to correlate with individuals that are able to peacefully integrate into a society. Granted there are exceptions -- Osama Bin Laden came from a billionaire family and was well educated, but they are indeed the exceptions. By contrast people that are impoverished, have little education, and especially that may hold more extreme religious views or have different cultural views than the countries they're migrating to, can result in major issues. For instance in Germany the numbers vary from 75%-90% of immigrants expected to be unable to find a job within 5 years. And crime among migrant has also been increasing. This is something that has been neglected in most left leaning media though the BBC did run a piece earlier this year [1]. As the article states, in one area regarded as "an average state" violent crime increased by more than 10% in a single year, with more than 90% of that increase attributable to migrants -- with migrants being twice as likely as German nationals to face reports of violent crime. I mean these are unpleasant facts, but they are absolutely true facts. This doesn't mean you should refuse all migration or even that migration is bad. But it does mean that you can't simply claim selective migration policies are just about money. Germany took in well over a million migrants. With the vast majority of these individuals not finding work in society that means society will be paying for them. How much is a fair amount of money to care for these individuals? Each $10,000 costs Germany around $10 billion per year. There's some irony referencing money here, but the point is that if you carried these policies out, without end, you'd eventually destroy your own nation, hurting countless individuals in the process, all because you were reluctant to say no. --- What I don't understand is why nobody wants to consider this issue objectively. I expect the above is mostly downvote bait, but that's ridiculous. It's like people on the right want absolutely no migrants because all migrants are evil. And people on the left want open borders because all migrants are amazing and loving people that will integrate fully and peacefully with no meaningful negative impacts whatsoever. This sort of dichotomy is idiotic, but people on both sides are so scared of being seen as being partial to the 'other side' that they become increasingly radicalized meeting in some horseshoe of mutual stupidity. Bah to it all. [1] - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42557828 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42557828
  - vilmosi 8y ago
    > For instance in Germany the numbers vary from 75%-90% of immigrants expected to be unable to find a job within 5 years Given 12% of Germany is foreign born and the country has 3.5% unemployment, something feels off about these numbers and conclusions.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
lsd5you 8y ago
No doubt there are terrible leaders, but experience in the middle east has shown it's no just terrible leaders standing in the way of prosperity.
- Cyph0n 8y ago
  Care to give examples of good leaders in the Middle East? Keep in mind that the only countries in MENA that currently have a democratically elected leader are Tunisia and Lebanon.
  - analog31 8y ago
    It may be even more fundamental: Good leaders emerge from a good democracy. Maybe what the Middle East needs is to copy from the constitutions of successful democracies. Even adopting just our First Amendment would be a decent start.
    - xaranke 8y ago
      As long as the oil status quo is maintained, I don't see this happening. Thankfully those days seem to be quickly disappearing.
    - azinman2 8y ago
      Democracy isn’t always the best form of government for a given population. I think all attempts to force it that have blown up are a good demonstration of this. It depends a lot on the culture, the would be leaders, etc. It should be emergent and home-grown, not exported.
      - ethbro 8y ago
        > It should be emergent and home-grown, not exported. It's amazing how bad government "democratic nation-building" is at realizing this. Democracy is, at best, a generational project. This issues we're seeing in autocratic -> democratic states are almost inherent in an overly quick transition. From a game theory perspective, why would any leaders act in the best interest of the country when there are no institutions and no expectation of democratic continuity?
greggarious 8y ago
>These African "leaders" send their kids to school in the west, they go to the west when sick. This is common among all oligarchs, and a great idea for sanctions. Want to rob your country blind and blow out your liver on fine drink? Congrats - you're barred from entry. Feel free to use the hospital in your home country like the rest of the poor souls you've abused.
- xaranke 8y ago
  This would require immense cooperation and the whole scheme can be defeated if any one country doesn't comply. Given that the US has offered medical visas to Yakuza leaders in the past, I don't see this ever happening.
  - mmsimanga 8y ago
    There have been some efforts by immigrants interestingly enough in the UK harassing a minister from their home country[1]. There should be more of this. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lceJAw6iSck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lceJAw6iSck
eric24234 8y ago
Exactly similar thing in india. This is happened with all indian Brahmins settled in United States. Top on the caste ladder, denied education to other castes and when british conquered india and gave education to other castes they started to move to united states, the Brahmins who are staying in india have missed that chance and can not compete now as other castes are competing too.
joaomacp 8y ago
Kim Jong-un went to school in Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-un#Early_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-un#Early_life
hedora 8y ago
Not sure about the UK, but here in the US, there’s been a consistent (since ~ WWII, at least) bipartisan effort to make sure those sorts of leaders run countries like yours. It’s unclear how voters here can make a difference: Arguably, things were worse under Obama than W. That was while Hillary Clinton was running the state department. Trump seems to be intentionally blowing up the entire federal foreign policy apparatus, which could help in theory, but he’s also doubling down on military policies that lead to indefinite wars. Also, he hasn’t ended any wars or cancelled funding for any of the things the US does to destabilize foreign nations. Sorry.
- mmsimanga 8y ago
  Please, no need to apologise. We all in this world to do the best we can. I presume the American people have their own problems they need to solve and if you have some capacity to help us, I would rather you put pressure on dictators causing immigrants. That's my opinion. Others will have different opinions on where the energy should be spent.

tinktank 8y ago

It's much easier to hate on an individual in front of you than a president, policy, regime or country (and takes less effort). The bigger grind for me is that the same countries (UK in particular) hammering citizens from those countries welcome leaders with open arms and provide them with refuge, the ability to buy sheltered properties etc. The UKG loves nothing or nobody but money, I just wish they would be upfront about it so their policies were consistent with their actions.

mmsimanga 8y ago
100% with you. At some point, someone has to ask who/what is causing the immigrants. I know the answer isn't simple. Some will even say the West is caused all the issues in the first place. At some point though we have to start discussing concrete ways of changing the status quos and moving forward. Changing UK immigration laws might help a few of us get into the UK but not much will change in the home country. The same African dictators rigging elections are allowed to vote on UN resolutions and make grandstanding speeches at global conventions.
- tinktank 8y ago
  Yes, that's the point I'm making. The west maintains the status quo because it's of benefit to them, they just don't want any of the side-effects (including increased migration). Colonization hasn't gone away, it's just changed form.
  - teknico 8y ago
    Downvoting reality does not make it less so, people.
TangoTrotFox 8y ago
I think you can also look at things aside from money. Education and wealth also tend to correlate with individuals that are able to peacefully integrate into a society. Granted there are exceptions -- Osama Bin Laden came from a billionaire family and was well educated, but they are indeed the exceptions. By contrast people that are impoverished, have little education, and especially that may hold more extreme religious views or have different cultural views than the countries they're migrating to, can result in major issues. For instance in Germany the numbers vary from 75%-90% of immigrants expected to be unable to find a job within 5 years. And crime among migrant has also been increasing. This is something that has been neglected in most left leaning media though the BBC did run a piece earlier this year [1]. As the article states, in one area regarded as "an average state" violent crime increased by more than 10% in a single year, with more than 90% of that increase attributable to migrants -- with migrants being twice as likely as German nationals to face reports of violent crime. I mean these are unpleasant facts, but they are absolutely true facts. This doesn't mean you should refuse all migration or even that migration is bad. But it does mean that you can't simply claim selective migration policies are just about money. Germany took in well over a million migrants. With the vast majority of these individuals not finding work in society that means society will be paying for them. How much is a fair amount of money to care for these individuals? Each $10,000 costs Germany around $10 billion per year. There's some irony referencing money here, but the point is that if you carried these policies out, without end, you'd eventually destroy your own nation, hurting countless individuals in the process, all because you were reluctant to say no. --- What I don't understand is why nobody wants to consider this issue objectively. I expect the above is mostly downvote bait, but that's ridiculous. It's like people on the right want absolutely no migrants because all migrants are evil. And people on the left want open borders because all migrants are amazing and loving people that will integrate fully and peacefully with no meaningful negative impacts whatsoever. This sort of dichotomy is idiotic, but people on both sides are so scared of being seen as being partial to the 'other side' that they become increasingly radicalized meeting in some horseshoe of mutual stupidity. Bah to it all. [1] - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42557828 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42557828
- vilmosi 8y ago
  > For instance in Germany the numbers vary from 75%-90% of immigrants expected to be unable to find a job within 5 years Given 12% of Germany is foreign born and the country has 3.5% unemployment, something feels off about these numbers and conclusions.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

lsd5you 8y ago

No doubt there are terrible leaders, but experience in the middle east has shown it's no just terrible leaders standing in the way of prosperity.

Cyph0n 8y ago
Care to give examples of good leaders in the Middle East? Keep in mind that the only countries in MENA that currently have a democratically elected leader are Tunisia and Lebanon.
- analog31 8y ago
  It may be even more fundamental: Good leaders emerge from a good democracy. Maybe what the Middle East needs is to copy from the constitutions of successful democracies. Even adopting just our First Amendment would be a decent start.
  - xaranke 8y ago
    As long as the oil status quo is maintained, I don't see this happening. Thankfully those days seem to be quickly disappearing.
  - azinman2 8y ago
    Democracy isn’t always the best form of government for a given population. I think all attempts to force it that have blown up are a good demonstration of this. It depends a lot on the culture, the would be leaders, etc. It should be emergent and home-grown, not exported.
    - ethbro 8y ago
      > It should be emergent and home-grown, not exported. It's amazing how bad government "democratic nation-building" is at realizing this. Democracy is, at best, a generational project. This issues we're seeing in autocratic -> democratic states are almost inherent in an overly quick transition. From a game theory perspective, why would any leaders act in the best interest of the country when there are no institutions and no expectation of democratic continuity?

greggarious 8y ago

>These African "leaders" send their kids to school in the west, they go to the west when sick. This is common among all oligarchs, and a great idea for sanctions. Want to rob your country blind and blow out your liver on fine drink? Congrats - you're barred from entry. Feel free to use the hospital in your home country like the rest of the poor souls you've abused.

xaranke 8y ago
This would require immense cooperation and the whole scheme can be defeated if any one country doesn't comply. Given that the US has offered medical visas to Yakuza leaders in the past, I don't see this ever happening.
- mmsimanga 8y ago
  There have been some efforts by immigrants interestingly enough in the UK harassing a minister from their home country[1]. There should be more of this. [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lceJAw6iSck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lceJAw6iSck

eric24234 8y ago

Exactly similar thing in india. This is happened with all indian Brahmins settled in United States. Top on the caste ladder, denied education to other castes and when british conquered india and gave education to other castes they started to move to united states, the Brahmins who are staying in india have missed that chance and can not compete now as other castes are competing too.

joaomacp 8y ago

Kim Jong-un went to school in Switzerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-un#Early_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-un#Early_life

hedora 8y ago

Not sure about the UK, but here in the US, there’s been a consistent (since ~ WWII, at least) bipartisan effort to make sure those sorts of leaders run countries like yours. It’s unclear how voters here can make a difference: Arguably, things were worse under Obama than W. That was while Hillary Clinton was running the state department. Trump seems to be intentionally blowing up the entire federal foreign policy apparatus, which could help in theory, but he’s also doubling down on military policies that lead to indefinite wars. Also, he hasn’t ended any wars or cancelled funding for any of the things the US does to destabilize foreign nations. Sorry.

mmsimanga 8y ago
Please, no need to apologise. We all in this world to do the best we can. I presume the American people have their own problems they need to solve and if you have some capacity to help us, I would rather you put pressure on dictators causing immigrants. That's my opinion. Others will have different opinions on where the energy should be spent.