5 ms·

Ok, but where are the people in the photos? Even a google image search reveals photos much like on altas obscura: vast tastefully designed cavernous space dott

Ok, but where are the people in the photos? Even a google image search reveals photos much like on altas obscura: vast tastefully designed cavernous space dotted with but a few token humans. It seems suspiciously clean and well maintained compared to NYC metro. Floors polished, no screaming lunatics, no cracked, floors, walls, ceilings. I am willing to bet it doesn't even smell like pee and vomit? Where are the masses?

gumby 8y ago
Those problems don't plague most other metros of the same vintage (e.g. Berlin, Paris, Moscow, St Petersburg, Tokyo, Osaka...) even though homeless people and vomit are prevalent there too. I don't know why NYC and BART have to have those issues.
- noir_lord 8y ago
  Because half the American population supports a party that thinks public spending should be banned. So you end up with the classic 'privatise the profits, socialise the costs' setup. I don't understand why people can't see that some public spending is an economic force multiplier. I mean US infrastructure is notoriously bad for a developed economy, you have thousands of bridges that need massive remedial work to make them safe by modern standards. https://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/15/us/structural-deficient-bridges-trnd/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/15/us/structural-deficient-b...
  - harryh 8y ago
    Issues with US infrastructure are not due to a lack of spending but a HUGE lack of efficiency in that spending. The US actually spends more than most OECD countries on this sort of thing. The reasons behind this poor efficiency are complex and no one really knows how to fix it. Here is an interesting article on the NYC Subway System. It's obviously about one small slice of US infrastructure but the general story is the same. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-system-failure-delays.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-... A lack of spending is not the problem. Also, incidentally, since you mentioned "privatise the profits", it's worth noting that the Stockholm subway system is operated by MTR Corporation, a for-profit corporation based on Hong Kong.
    - so33 8y ago
      >it's worth noting that the Stockholm subway system is operated by MTR Corporation, a for-profit corporation based on Hong Kong It’s also worth noting that the MTR Corporation is majority owned by the Hong Kong government and, at least in Hong Kong, operates on a strict SLA where they are fined for delays.
  - bogomipz 8y ago
    >"Because half the American population supports a party that thinks public spending should be banned. So you end up with the classic 'privatise the profits, socialise the costs' setup." Except that New York and California - the locations of NYC's MTA and SF's BART are both overwhelmingly Democrat strongholds. Neither are Republican places. This is true at both the city and state level, which is where the control and funding for these metros comes from not the federal level.
    - joecool1029 8y ago
      > Neither are Republican places. This is true at both the city and state level, which is where the control and funding for these metros comes from not the federal level. Wrong about NY. Albany's government might as well be from another planet compared to NYC. They currently have a Republican controlled Senate. And it is the state-level that usually hamstrings the MTA. 2009 was a particularly bad year in which the MTA budget got raided [1] and the government was in a deadlock [2]. [1] https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2010/03/09/albany-didnt-cut-the-mta-budget-they-stole-from-it/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2010/03/09/albany-didnt-cut-the-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_New_York_State_Senate_leadership_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_New_York_State_Senate_lea...
      - tokyodude 8y ago
        should follow Japan? https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2011/10/why-tokyos-privately-owned-rail-systems-work-so-well/389/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2011/10/why-tokyos-pr...
      - bogomipz 8y ago
        No I am not wrong about New York, Republicans might currently control the senate but the State Assembly in Albany has been controlled by Democrats every year since 1992[1]. And it takes both chambers to pass legislation doesn't it? Your first link completely supports my point: >"A plan to shrink the state budget by $2.7 billion to keep New York from going broke was passed by the Legislature on Wednesday." That would be the same Democrat-controlled since 1992 state legislature that passed that budget plan. Furthermore the Governor appoints 6 of the 17 seats of the MTA board. And Governor Cuomo is a Democrat from NYC(Queens.) And the the Mayor another Democrat gets to appoint 4 seats. Thats 10 of the 17, for a majority.[1] Let's also point out that New York state has had a Democratic Governor for the last 11 years as well. So those board seat decisions have been by a Democrat for over a decade now. That certainly seems like a healthy does ofDemocrat influence doesn't it? Maybe do a little more fact checking before telling people they are wrong. And to be clear the context of my comment was in response to the OP who was insisting that the sad state of mass transit in NYC and SF is because of Republicans and that simply not true as both parties are equally to blame. Failure to fund infrastructure is failure by government period. Reductionist partisan finger pointing is what those have failed us would like us to believe. [1] https://ballotpedia.org/New_York_State_Legislature https://ballotpedia.org/New_York_State_Legislature [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/nyregion/who-runs-new-yorks-subway.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/nyregion/who-runs-new-yor...
CPLX 8y ago
I’ve been at the station in the article during rush hour. It was quite packed with people but still extremely clean and thoroughly pleasant. In my admittedly limited experience the Swedes are really good at shared public spaces.
waterbear 8y ago
This feels like a troll comment, in that it asks a back-handed question, to highlight the shortcomings of a comparable example, more than the question voices honest curiosity regarding the question as it may be superficially posed. Possibly in an effort to lead the loaded question down a negative path, such that responses will lend voice to an opinion one might read between the lines. But first and foremost, no one from New York calls it “NYC Metro.” It’s The Subway, and it’s operated by the MTA. So, already your comment has the ring of someone who doesn’t live in New York. And to go one deeper, The Subway hasn’t smelled like that since the mid 1990’s. Most of the tourist stations “Disney-fied” by Giuliani get power washed every single night, after midnight, during the gravyard shift, to eliminate the smells of humanity. It’s still very old, very dirty, very inefficient, slow, crowded, and peppered with tourists, homeless people, pickpockets and weirdos all at once. New York has more going on than many other cities, and is as dense as it is diverse, and it’s been that way for at least 100 years (or at least the subway has), and that’s a somewhat conservative time frame, but Other cities aren’t like that, and some of it is due to strict policing. Not always though. Some of it has to do with climate, sunlight and weather, or in social terms, the implicit understanding of the expectation of one’s peers. In lively cities, when transplanted people lose a sense of expected behavior among strangers, behavior loosens up. Some cities have a specific reputation as being a destination for the specific reason to either lose or find one’s sense of self. New York is one of those places.
- crispyambulance 8y ago
  Not my intent to make a troll comment. But, yes, "the subway" in NYC does STILL smell like pee and vomit in many places and, yes, it is chaotic. That's been my impression of subways in many but not all cities. I think that it's possible to do better. I question why so many cities allow their public spaces to decay to such a low level while others seem to cherish their spaces.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    I will say that the subway in NYC is not really typical of its public spaces in general these days. (Go back a few decades and both the subway and many of its public spaces like parks were much worse.) There is a fairly large homeless population and Manhattan generally is a rather dense, fast moving, and chaotic place. But parks like Central Park and Bryant Park are pretty pleasant for the most part.
consto 8y ago
I was in Stockholm a few weeks ago and among other things, went to visit this subway station. Granted I didn't visit during rush hour, but it was quiet, clean and rather nice. The station itself may be the deepest, but it isn't the busiest, and if you look at a map it makes sense. It's a single stop away from T-Centralan where all of the lines converge and it is the last station on the line. Leaving the station you emerge in a garden near the centre of the city, but there are other lines that will probably get most closer. I went there in the middle of summer and honestly, the entire city didn't feel that busy in the same way London feels. I wouldn't be surprised if many locals are holidaying elsewhere, and Stockholm while a capital city, isn't at the top of the list of city destinations. Also, shameless self-promotion and photos, but a friend challenged me to blog my trip and post online, click here for photos: https://consto.uk/2018/07/16/interrailing-into-stockholm-day-five https://consto.uk/2018/07/16/interrailing-into-stockholm-day...
- drakonka 8y ago
  This is correct - Swedes have an odd habit of leaving Sweden during the best part of the year weather-wise! Granted I'm exaggerating; many don't leave the country entirely but go out to their summerhouses for the month of July. Because most people take the entirety of July off (many businesses shut down completely for the month), that's when they take their longer trips. Stockholm suddenly becomes very quiet (perfect for me as a resident who prefers to stay in the city during this time). I hear that this year fewer people actually chose to go away than usual.
  - consto 8y ago
    Not surprised fewer went away this year. I was travelling around for nearly four weeks and it rained once, at 8pm. The weather and temperature were beautiful, in the high 20s to low 30s even in Stockholm!
piva00 8y ago
I live in Stockholm, the stations are almost always clean and tidy, rush hour doesn't look anything close to NYC metro (or any other major metro areas you might think of). The metro is quiet, even during rush hours, people keep to themselves in their own seats, there are no cracked floors, walls or ceilings (at least on most of the stations I've been to and I think I have been to a good 70+% of them). It doesn't smell like pee nor vomit and there isn't people shitting on the escalators (like I saw at Jamaica Station when I went to NYC for the first time, it was one of the first sights I had after leaving JFK).

gumby 8y ago

Those problems don't plague most other metros of the same vintage (e.g. Berlin, Paris, Moscow, St Petersburg, Tokyo, Osaka...) even though homeless people and vomit are prevalent there too. I don't know why NYC and BART have to have those issues.

noir_lord 8y ago
Because half the American population supports a party that thinks public spending should be banned. So you end up with the classic 'privatise the profits, socialise the costs' setup. I don't understand why people can't see that some public spending is an economic force multiplier. I mean US infrastructure is notoriously bad for a developed economy, you have thousands of bridges that need massive remedial work to make them safe by modern standards. https://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/15/us/structural-deficient-bridges-trnd/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/15/us/structural-deficient-b...
- harryh 8y ago
  Issues with US infrastructure are not due to a lack of spending but a HUGE lack of efficiency in that spending. The US actually spends more than most OECD countries on this sort of thing. The reasons behind this poor efficiency are complex and no one really knows how to fix it. Here is an interesting article on the NYC Subway System. It's obviously about one small slice of US infrastructure but the general story is the same. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-system-failure-delays.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-... A lack of spending is not the problem. Also, incidentally, since you mentioned "privatise the profits", it's worth noting that the Stockholm subway system is operated by MTR Corporation, a for-profit corporation based on Hong Kong.
  - so33 8y ago
    >it's worth noting that the Stockholm subway system is operated by MTR Corporation, a for-profit corporation based on Hong Kong It’s also worth noting that the MTR Corporation is majority owned by the Hong Kong government and, at least in Hong Kong, operates on a strict SLA where they are fined for delays.
- bogomipz 8y ago
  >"Because half the American population supports a party that thinks public spending should be banned. So you end up with the classic 'privatise the profits, socialise the costs' setup." Except that New York and California - the locations of NYC's MTA and SF's BART are both overwhelmingly Democrat strongholds. Neither are Republican places. This is true at both the city and state level, which is where the control and funding for these metros comes from not the federal level.
  - joecool1029 8y ago
    > Neither are Republican places. This is true at both the city and state level, which is where the control and funding for these metros comes from not the federal level. Wrong about NY. Albany's government might as well be from another planet compared to NYC. They currently have a Republican controlled Senate. And it is the state-level that usually hamstrings the MTA. 2009 was a particularly bad year in which the MTA budget got raided [1] and the government was in a deadlock [2]. [1] https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2010/03/09/albany-didnt-cut-the-mta-budget-they-stole-from-it/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2010/03/09/albany-didnt-cut-the-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_New_York_State_Senate_leadership_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_New_York_State_Senate_lea...
    - tokyodude 8y ago
      should follow Japan? https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2011/10/why-tokyos-privately-owned-rail-systems-work-so-well/389/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2011/10/why-tokyos-pr...
    - bogomipz 8y ago
      No I am not wrong about New York, Republicans might currently control the senate but the State Assembly in Albany has been controlled by Democrats every year since 1992[1]. And it takes both chambers to pass legislation doesn't it? Your first link completely supports my point: >"A plan to shrink the state budget by $2.7 billion to keep New York from going broke was passed by the Legislature on Wednesday." That would be the same Democrat-controlled since 1992 state legislature that passed that budget plan. Furthermore the Governor appoints 6 of the 17 seats of the MTA board. And Governor Cuomo is a Democrat from NYC(Queens.) And the the Mayor another Democrat gets to appoint 4 seats. Thats 10 of the 17, for a majority.[1] Let's also point out that New York state has had a Democratic Governor for the last 11 years as well. So those board seat decisions have been by a Democrat for over a decade now. That certainly seems like a healthy does ofDemocrat influence doesn't it? Maybe do a little more fact checking before telling people they are wrong. And to be clear the context of my comment was in response to the OP who was insisting that the sad state of mass transit in NYC and SF is because of Republicans and that simply not true as both parties are equally to blame. Failure to fund infrastructure is failure by government period. Reductionist partisan finger pointing is what those have failed us would like us to believe. [1] https://ballotpedia.org/New_York_State_Legislature https://ballotpedia.org/New_York_State_Legislature [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/nyregion/who-runs-new-yorks-subway.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/25/nyregion/who-runs-new-yor...

CPLX 8y ago

I’ve been at the station in the article during rush hour. It was quite packed with people but still extremely clean and thoroughly pleasant. In my admittedly limited experience the Swedes are really good at shared public spaces.

waterbear 8y ago

This feels like a troll comment, in that it asks a back-handed question, to highlight the shortcomings of a comparable example, more than the question voices honest curiosity regarding the question as it may be superficially posed. Possibly in an effort to lead the loaded question down a negative path, such that responses will lend voice to an opinion one might read between the lines. But first and foremost, no one from New York calls it “NYC Metro.” It’s The Subway, and it’s operated by the MTA. So, already your comment has the ring of someone who doesn’t live in New York. And to go one deeper, The Subway hasn’t smelled like that since the mid 1990’s. Most of the tourist stations “Disney-fied” by Giuliani get power washed every single night, after midnight, during the gravyard shift, to eliminate the smells of humanity. It’s still very old, very dirty, very inefficient, slow, crowded, and peppered with tourists, homeless people, pickpockets and weirdos all at once. New York has more going on than many other cities, and is as dense as it is diverse, and it’s been that way for at least 100 years (or at least the subway has), and that’s a somewhat conservative time frame, but Other cities aren’t like that, and some of it is due to strict policing. Not always though. Some of it has to do with climate, sunlight and weather, or in social terms, the implicit understanding of the expectation of one’s peers. In lively cities, when transplanted people lose a sense of expected behavior among strangers, behavior loosens up. Some cities have a specific reputation as being a destination for the specific reason to either lose or find one’s sense of self. New York is one of those places.

crispyambulance 8y ago
Not my intent to make a troll comment. But, yes, "the subway" in NYC does STILL smell like pee and vomit in many places and, yes, it is chaotic. That's been my impression of subways in many but not all cities. I think that it's possible to do better. I question why so many cities allow their public spaces to decay to such a low level while others seem to cherish their spaces.
- ghaff 8y ago
  I will say that the subway in NYC is not really typical of its public spaces in general these days. (Go back a few decades and both the subway and many of its public spaces like parks were much worse.) There is a fairly large homeless population and Manhattan generally is a rather dense, fast moving, and chaotic place. But parks like Central Park and Bryant Park are pretty pleasant for the most part.

consto 8y ago

I was in Stockholm a few weeks ago and among other things, went to visit this subway station. Granted I didn't visit during rush hour, but it was quiet, clean and rather nice. The station itself may be the deepest, but it isn't the busiest, and if you look at a map it makes sense. It's a single stop away from T-Centralan where all of the lines converge and it is the last station on the line. Leaving the station you emerge in a garden near the centre of the city, but there are other lines that will probably get most closer. I went there in the middle of summer and honestly, the entire city didn't feel that busy in the same way London feels. I wouldn't be surprised if many locals are holidaying elsewhere, and Stockholm while a capital city, isn't at the top of the list of city destinations. Also, shameless self-promotion and photos, but a friend challenged me to blog my trip and post online, click here for photos: https://consto.uk/2018/07/16/interrailing-into-stockholm-day-five https://consto.uk/2018/07/16/interrailing-into-stockholm-day...

drakonka 8y ago
This is correct - Swedes have an odd habit of leaving Sweden during the best part of the year weather-wise! Granted I'm exaggerating; many don't leave the country entirely but go out to their summerhouses for the month of July. Because most people take the entirety of July off (many businesses shut down completely for the month), that's when they take their longer trips. Stockholm suddenly becomes very quiet (perfect for me as a resident who prefers to stay in the city during this time). I hear that this year fewer people actually chose to go away than usual.
- consto 8y ago
  Not surprised fewer went away this year. I was travelling around for nearly four weeks and it rained once, at 8pm. The weather and temperature were beautiful, in the high 20s to low 30s even in Stockholm!

piva00 8y ago

I live in Stockholm, the stations are almost always clean and tidy, rush hour doesn't look anything close to NYC metro (or any other major metro areas you might think of). The metro is quiet, even during rush hours, people keep to themselves in their own seats, there are no cracked floors, walls or ceilings (at least on most of the stations I've been to and I think I have been to a good 70+% of them). It doesn't smell like pee nor vomit and there isn't people shitting on the escalators (like I saw at Jamaica Station when I went to NYC for the first time, it was one of the first sights I had after leaving JFK).