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> You argue that these US documents apply in China? Not at all. I argued that certain human rights are inherent to being human. The US Constitution does not in

> You argue that these US documents apply in China? Not at all. I argued that certain human rights are inherent to being human. The US Constitution does not invent or bestow those rights, it recognizes and guarantees them. (And yes, the US government has fallen short of that now and then.)

mirimir 8y ago
Yes, I get that. And I agree with that. Still, as much as I (and arguably, most of those reading this) agree with that claim, the fact remains that the Chinese government (and arguably, much if not most, of China's population) do not. And there are norms and laws there which are inconsistent with that claim. And furthermore, that situation is certainly not unique to China. Also, there's the internationally recognized expectation that businesses are subject to at least the laws of places where they do business. And governments are not shy about enforcing their laws. So if Google wants to do business in China, it must accept Chinese jurisdiction. Just as Google must comply with EU regulations and court orders in order to do business there. And yes, I get the argument that Google ought to stay out of China, on moral grounds. Back when South Africa practiced apartheid, I would have expected Google to shun that market. However, I don't believe that Google has exited the Israeli market, in protest over human rights abuse against Palestinians. Or more generally, against a theocratic government that discriminates against all non Jews. Also, Google is clearly cooperating with the EU regarding the "right to be forgotten". On its face, that violates the right to free speech. Although an exception could be justified by other enumerated human rights, that seems inconsistent with libel precedents in the US. Finally, if we expect Google to stay out of China on moral grounds, what about all of the other firms that have invested in Chinese businesses, buy products from them, and otherwise participate in the Chinese economy? Why isn't there pressure to divest and sanction, as there has been regarding North Korea, Iran, Russia, and so on? As there was regarding South Africa, during apartheid? Why isn't there pressure for Apple etc to source components elsewhere? What's so special about Google, in this regard?

mirimir 8y ago

Yes, I get that. And I agree with that. Still, as much as I (and arguably, most of those reading this) agree with that claim, the fact remains that the Chinese government (and arguably, much if not most, of China's population) do not. And there are norms and laws there which are inconsistent with that claim. And furthermore, that situation is certainly not unique to China. Also, there's the internationally recognized expectation that businesses are subject to at least the laws of places where they do business. And governments are not shy about enforcing their laws. So if Google wants to do business in China, it must accept Chinese jurisdiction. Just as Google must comply with EU regulations and court orders in order to do business there. And yes, I get the argument that Google ought to stay out of China, on moral grounds. Back when South Africa practiced apartheid, I would have expected Google to shun that market. However, I don't believe that Google has exited the Israeli market, in protest over human rights abuse against Palestinians. Or more generally, against a theocratic government that discriminates against all non Jews. Also, Google is clearly cooperating with the EU regarding the "right to be forgotten". On its face, that violates the right to free speech. Although an exception could be justified by other enumerated human rights, that seems inconsistent with libel precedents in the US. Finally, if we expect Google to stay out of China on moral grounds, what about all of the other firms that have invested in Chinese businesses, buy products from them, and otherwise participate in the Chinese economy? Why isn't there pressure to divest and sanction, as there has been regarding North Korea, Iran, Russia, and so on? As there was regarding South Africa, during apartheid? Why isn't there pressure for Apple etc to source components elsewhere? What's so special about Google, in this regard?