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When Is Speech Violence?

2 points by jeromebaek 8y ago

mpweiher 8y ago
Hmm...how about never? It can be an incitement to violence, but unless you are amplifying it to levels that produce physical harm, it's difficult. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me" The idea that anything that causes harm is violence is downright silly, the linguistic gymnastics of TFA notwithstanding. Aging causes harm. The sun causes harm. Slipping on a Banana peel causes harm. "Bananas are literally violence"
- deleted 8y ago
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- jeromebaek 8y ago
  "The idea that anything that causes harm is violence is downright silly" When something is "silly", this is an important sensation you should grasp at, not dismiss, because silliness is nothing but a reveal of your innermost biases. Furthermore you are setting up a straw man. The article does not say: "speech causes harm, if x causes harm, x is violence, therefore speech is violence", which is what you seem to be arguing. Violence, obviously, is meaningless unless there is some person behind the violent act. This is why your silly sentence "bananas are literally violence" is incoherent: you are confusing an act, a verb (speech) with a thing, a noun (banana).
- mlevental 8y ago
  >never first of all you're equivocating about the difference between violence and harm but that aside you seem very certain soft (volume) speech can't harm. okay then you should be fine with this experiment (and confident about its result): let me put you into a room and have people come in for 8 hours a day and call you stupid, ugly, worthless, a disappointment, etc. in perfectly mild tones for exactly one month. we'll perform a mood/outlook/mental health assessment before and after. do you think there will be a difference in the two assessments?
  - mpweiher 8y ago
    Well, I can just leave, can't I? If I can't, lets compare the results of this experiment with being incarcerated for a month without those people. But that doesn't really matter. > mood/outlook/mental health assessment We were talking about violence. > perfectly mild tones for exactly one month. You are saying I can be harmed without violence happening. That is exactly my point. Harm != violence. There can be violence without harm and harm without violence.
    - mlevental 8y ago
      >If I can't, lets compare the results of this experiment with being incarcerated for a month without those people. yes lets. are you suggesting that the results still wouldn't be markedly different? >We were talking about violence. you're arguing semantics. what is the substantive difference between violence and intentional harm sans physical force? which propositional relations in the universe of such relations (re personhood, health, agency) are sensitive to whether there is physical force involved? you're being pedantic - analogously i could argue that incarceration isn't violence either because the bars of the cage don't apply any force on the person.
      - mpweiher 8y ago
        > you're arguing semantics. Yes. Semantics, what things mean. This is important, because without semantics we just utter meaningless syntax, and those colorless green ideas sleep furiously[1]. For example, by saying that whether actual violence is involved doesn't matter, you've just erased a complete section of criminal justice codes.[2] These distinctions matter. Materially. And no, incarceration isn't violence. Incarceration is incarceration, it sometimes follows violence, but it can also follow non-violent crime. There can also be violence in incarceration, but there can also not be violence, and if you resist incarceration there can also be violence in order to enforce incarceration. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_furiously https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_fu... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_crime

2 points by jeromebaek 8y ago

Hmm...how about never? It can be an incitement to violence, but unless you are amplifying it to levels that produce physical harm, it's difficult. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me" The idea that anything that causes harm is violence is downright silly, the linguistic gymnastics of TFA notwithstanding. Aging causes harm. The sun causes harm. Slipping on a Banana peel causes harm. "Bananas are literally violence"

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jeromebaek 8y ago
"The idea that anything that causes harm is violence is downright silly" When something is "silly", this is an important sensation you should grasp at, not dismiss, because silliness is nothing but a reveal of your innermost biases. Furthermore you are setting up a straw man. The article does not say: "speech causes harm, if x causes harm, x is violence, therefore speech is violence", which is what you seem to be arguing. Violence, obviously, is meaningless unless there is some person behind the violent act. This is why your silly sentence "bananas are literally violence" is incoherent: you are confusing an act, a verb (speech) with a thing, a noun (banana).
mlevental 8y ago
>never first of all you're equivocating about the difference between violence and harm but that aside you seem very certain soft (volume) speech can't harm. okay then you should be fine with this experiment (and confident about its result): let me put you into a room and have people come in for 8 hours a day and call you stupid, ugly, worthless, a disappointment, etc. in perfectly mild tones for exactly one month. we'll perform a mood/outlook/mental health assessment before and after. do you think there will be a difference in the two assessments?
- mpweiher 8y ago
  Well, I can just leave, can't I? If I can't, lets compare the results of this experiment with being incarcerated for a month without those people. But that doesn't really matter. > mood/outlook/mental health assessment We were talking about violence. > perfectly mild tones for exactly one month. You are saying I can be harmed without violence happening. That is exactly my point. Harm != violence. There can be violence without harm and harm without violence.
  - mlevental 8y ago
    >If I can't, lets compare the results of this experiment with being incarcerated for a month without those people. yes lets. are you suggesting that the results still wouldn't be markedly different? >We were talking about violence. you're arguing semantics. what is the substantive difference between violence and intentional harm sans physical force? which propositional relations in the universe of such relations (re personhood, health, agency) are sensitive to whether there is physical force involved? you're being pedantic - analogously i could argue that incarceration isn't violence either because the bars of the cage don't apply any force on the person.
    - mpweiher 8y ago
      > you're arguing semantics. Yes. Semantics, what things mean. This is important, because without semantics we just utter meaningless syntax, and those colorless green ideas sleep furiously[1]. For example, by saying that whether actual violence is involved doesn't matter, you've just erased a complete section of criminal justice codes.[2] These distinctions matter. Materially. And no, incarceration isn't violence. Incarceration is incarceration, it sometimes follows violence, but it can also follow non-violent crime. There can also be violence in incarceration, but there can also not be violence, and if you resist incarceration there can also be violence in order to enforce incarceration. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_furiously https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_fu... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_crime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_crime