4 ms·

Elect new councilors. Have their shenanigans been televised?

barry-cotter 8y ago
Doesn’t matter if you elect new councillors. If the Council can’t hold a substantive meeting without the public present all meetings are electioneering. You can’t negotiate in public unless you are completely secure in your power. Any negotiation will involve setting out options, give and take that will anger some part of any coalition. If the meetings are public those angered people get to yell at the councillors and otherwise disrupt the negotiations, not just physically but by raising coalitions against proposed measures in almost real time. Obviously the various factions will have private meetings among themselves and have private meetings between representatives when they actually need to get things done or come to an agreement. This degrading of internal communications is pretty much the entire point of Wikileaks.
- skookumchuck 8y ago
  > Obviously the various factions will have private meetings among themselves and have private meetings beteeen representatives when they actually need to get things done or come to an agreement. Those private meetings are illegal under state law, yet the councilors do it anyway (this was brought to light during the recent Head Tax debacle).
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    Of course they do. What's the alternative, turn into a rubber stamp for whatever the civil service has already decided? put everything to a popular vote?
    - windows_tips 8y ago
      It's hard not to sympathize with the yelling angry people. The problem seems to maybe be more that the Councilors appear to enrage people, either for their actions directly, or for actions perceived to be originating from the Councilors. Have their been any investigations into why people find them revolting?
      - barry-cotter 8y ago
        People will agitate for their interests, beliefs and values. Any outcome to negotiations will have winners and losers. Even if people benefit from some deal there is probably another plausible deal where they benefit more or a deal where they get just as big a benefit but their hated enemy gets nothing or is actively harmed. Without the ability to have private negotiations and present the final deal on a take it or leave it basis your negotiations will at best be slower in teaching an agreement. Negotiations are hard, the more parties there are the harder they get. Public negotiations have very large numbers of parties, even if most of them can’t vote.

Doesn’t matter if you elect new councillors. If the Council can’t hold a substantive meeting without the public present all meetings are electioneering. You can’t negotiate in public unless you are completely secure in your power. Any negotiation will involve setting out options, give and take that will anger some part of any coalition. If the meetings are public those angered people get to yell at the councillors and otherwise disrupt the negotiations, not just physically but by raising coalitions against proposed measures in almost real time. Obviously the various factions will have private meetings among themselves and have private meetings between representatives when they actually need to get things done or come to an agreement. This degrading of internal communications is pretty much the entire point of Wikileaks.

skookumchuck 8y ago
> Obviously the various factions will have private meetings among themselves and have private meetings beteeen representatives when they actually need to get things done or come to an agreement. Those private meetings are illegal under state law, yet the councilors do it anyway (this was brought to light during the recent Head Tax debacle).
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  Of course they do. What's the alternative, turn into a rubber stamp for whatever the civil service has already decided? put everything to a popular vote?
  - windows_tips 8y ago
    It's hard not to sympathize with the yelling angry people. The problem seems to maybe be more that the Councilors appear to enrage people, either for their actions directly, or for actions perceived to be originating from the Councilors. Have their been any investigations into why people find them revolting?
    - barry-cotter 8y ago
      People will agitate for their interests, beliefs and values. Any outcome to negotiations will have winners and losers. Even if people benefit from some deal there is probably another plausible deal where they benefit more or a deal where they get just as big a benefit but their hated enemy gets nothing or is actively harmed. Without the ability to have private negotiations and present the final deal on a take it or leave it basis your negotiations will at best be slower in teaching an agreement. Negotiations are hard, the more parties there are the harder they get. Public negotiations have very large numbers of parties, even if most of them can’t vote.