3 ms·

Customers don't demand non-testicle exploding drugs because that's already the standard in the same way that customers don't demand software that doesn't wipe t

by furi 8y ago

Customers don't demand non-testicle exploding drugs because that's already the standard in the same way that customers don't demand software that doesn't wipe their disks at random intervals, because software already doesn't (careless usage of dd notwithstanding). If drugs started exploding testicles you can bet customers would start demanding they didn't (male customers at least). Just look at the Thalidomide incident, I've seen it in the news within the last decade and it happened nearly 60 years ago at this point.

luma 8y ago
I think consumers are a little more savvy than people in this thread are giving them credit for. Sure, nobody want exploding gonads, but most folks couldn't give a whit if some overseas teenager manages to sneak a look at the contents of their driveway. People just want a cheap camera to catch their neighbors letting the dog poop in their lawn, and if it means becoming part of a botnot, who cares. The market has spoken, cheap wins over secure time after time. The consumers know, and they don't care, because to them the stakes are just not that high. Their genitals will be fine, and who wouldn't mind an extra set of eyes on the front yard.
- smolder 8y ago
  Consumers are not savvy as a group. There is always an "eternal september", new suckers born every minute, that can be abused. Beyond that, there are plenty of ways that you can maintain consumer trust while abusing it at the same time. You can sell them products that hurt them in ways they don't understand, and you can control the media surrounding your product enough to ensure that they don't understand. Advertising has a basic purpose of making people aware of products, but it also serves to mislead them on the value of things, overstating the benefits and understating the costs. This idea that people understand the total consequence of what they do with their money is so simplistic that it's stupid. Markets don't "speak" from a vaccuum, they demand what their constituents are convinced is valuable, regardless of the accuracy of valuation. Lies sell garbage all the time and the consumer isn't to blame for wanting it, the professional, skilled, psychology-wielding liars who sold them on it are. Hypothetical example: pay for a bunk study that concludes eating apples prevents hair loss, benefit for decades, with negligible repercussions to your business when the lie is uncovered. I'd be skeptical if you claim you can't identify several real examples yourself.
  - s_m_t 8y ago
    I think you are missing a crucial point. I as a consumer really do not care in the least if someone hacks my device. Worst comes to worst I either do some sort of factory reset or just throw it out, I was probably looking to buy the shinier version anyways. Who cares? I really dont care if my tea kettle is part of some botnet. I cant even imagine a reason why I should care. I guess it sorta sucks for the people getting ddosed :/ For instance, my router cost me $20. It is probably full of security holes. I dont care. To buy a router that was secure I would have to pay more than $20. I would not feel any benefit for spending that extra money. So I don't do it. On the other hand, as a developer I'm always thinking about security because it is fun and I feel a sense of responsibility for the things I make.
    - paulie_a 8y ago
      Outside of the fact important information can easily be stolen. Personally I think the consumer should face financial liability when iot devices are used in massive attacks that create problems for others. Just because you chose a shitty vendor with a shitty product doesn't mean the entire internet should suffer. I am a fan of things like brickerbot and I hope that sort of thing continues aggressively.
      - speedplane 8y ago
        How can you reasonably ask a consumer to evaluate the security of a product when many don’t have basic education? Also, many reputable companies that make “good products” have security breaches, so you can’t just rely on reputation.
        paulie_a 8y ago
        Force the consumer to force manufacturers to make less shitty products. Until that happens I hope brickerbot type attacks continue to happen for the cheapo crap. Sure good products can have a security flaw. But iot and home routers are complete garbage. The consumer should be held liable for being apart of massive disruption of the internet. It's the equivalent of manslaughter, you might not have intended it. But in this case you didn't do anything to stop it and helped to cause millions in damage. I quite frankly don't care about their education. That's their responsibility. Just the same as you need to learn to drive.
- smegger001 8y ago
  Not just that but the customers informed enough to care can do it themselves. Most people on this site care about security, and most people on this site can set up their own home automation, servers, security camera, and/or speaker system. So the people buying these future botnet-nodes end up being the unsavvy inevitably.

by furi 8y ago

luma 8y ago

I think consumers are a little more savvy than people in this thread are giving them credit for. Sure, nobody want exploding gonads, but most folks couldn't give a whit if some overseas teenager manages to sneak a look at the contents of their driveway. People just want a cheap camera to catch their neighbors letting the dog poop in their lawn, and if it means becoming part of a botnot, who cares. The market has spoken, cheap wins over secure time after time. The consumers know, and they don't care, because to them the stakes are just not that high. Their genitals will be fine, and who wouldn't mind an extra set of eyes on the front yard.

smolder 8y ago
Consumers are not savvy as a group. There is always an "eternal september", new suckers born every minute, that can be abused. Beyond that, there are plenty of ways that you can maintain consumer trust while abusing it at the same time. You can sell them products that hurt them in ways they don't understand, and you can control the media surrounding your product enough to ensure that they don't understand. Advertising has a basic purpose of making people aware of products, but it also serves to mislead them on the value of things, overstating the benefits and understating the costs. This idea that people understand the total consequence of what they do with their money is so simplistic that it's stupid. Markets don't "speak" from a vaccuum, they demand what their constituents are convinced is valuable, regardless of the accuracy of valuation. Lies sell garbage all the time and the consumer isn't to blame for wanting it, the professional, skilled, psychology-wielding liars who sold them on it are. Hypothetical example: pay for a bunk study that concludes eating apples prevents hair loss, benefit for decades, with negligible repercussions to your business when the lie is uncovered. I'd be skeptical if you claim you can't identify several real examples yourself.
- s_m_t 8y ago
  I think you are missing a crucial point. I as a consumer really do not care in the least if someone hacks my device. Worst comes to worst I either do some sort of factory reset or just throw it out, I was probably looking to buy the shinier version anyways. Who cares? I really dont care if my tea kettle is part of some botnet. I cant even imagine a reason why I should care. I guess it sorta sucks for the people getting ddosed :/ For instance, my router cost me $20. It is probably full of security holes. I dont care. To buy a router that was secure I would have to pay more than $20. I would not feel any benefit for spending that extra money. So I don't do it. On the other hand, as a developer I'm always thinking about security because it is fun and I feel a sense of responsibility for the things I make.
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    Outside of the fact important information can easily be stolen. Personally I think the consumer should face financial liability when iot devices are used in massive attacks that create problems for others. Just because you chose a shitty vendor with a shitty product doesn't mean the entire internet should suffer. I am a fan of things like brickerbot and I hope that sort of thing continues aggressively.
    - speedplane 8y ago
      How can you reasonably ask a consumer to evaluate the security of a product when many don’t have basic education? Also, many reputable companies that make “good products” have security breaches, so you can’t just rely on reputation.
      - paulie_a 8y ago
        Force the consumer to force manufacturers to make less shitty products. Until that happens I hope brickerbot type attacks continue to happen for the cheapo crap. Sure good products can have a security flaw. But iot and home routers are complete garbage. The consumer should be held liable for being apart of massive disruption of the internet. It's the equivalent of manslaughter, you might not have intended it. But in this case you didn't do anything to stop it and helped to cause millions in damage. I quite frankly don't care about their education. That's their responsibility. Just the same as you need to learn to drive.
smegger001 8y ago
Not just that but the customers informed enough to care can do it themselves. Most people on this site care about security, and most people on this site can set up their own home automation, servers, security camera, and/or speaker system. So the people buying these future botnet-nodes end up being the unsavvy inevitably.