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I really like Kakoune and its ideas. But I've invested too much into vim to switch at this point :(

by icholy 8y ago

kungtotte 8y ago
This is exactly my position too. I really like the concept of kakoune, but vim is everywhere. I can install keybinds for it in any editor on the planet, there's at least a vi on any system I happen across, things like qutebrowser ships with vim bindings by default, etc. etc.
- caymanjim 8y ago
  Vim really isn't everywhere, though, in any meaningful sense. I see this claim frequently, but if you're a Vim power user, using it as your primary IDE, the stock configuration is unusable. A fully-customized Vim setup bears very little resemblance to a vanilla/default Vim setup, and the default can't be used for anything more than quick, tiny changes. Also, how often do you use a brand-new clean system without any extra software installed? You might regularly do this if you're a sysadmin/devops person, but in that case, you ought to be using Ansible or something to bootstrap the machine to a robust state, and that would include customizing Vim if you rely on it heavily. The "quick edit to system config files" use case for Vim is also not the same as the "software development environment" use case. You can get by with unconfigured Vim in this scenario, but it doesn't obviate the need for a complete configuration if you plan to do intense editing later. The fallacy that "Vim is everywhere" is perpetuated by people who don't use Vim for software development.
  - pasabagi 8y ago
    I don't know. I think the stock vim is pretty good, and loads of power users tend more towards the 'no plugins' than the 'all the plugins' end of the spectrum. I started with a much bigger load of plugins than I use now, and I don't think I'm unusual in that. The stock settings and workflows, once you understand them, are usually better. The only exception is really for frills - like, a plugin that helps with composing regexes, or language-specific IDE stuff, or a pretty documentation browser. Not to mention, it's really very quick to get all your normal plugins set up. I have a git repo that I just clone.
  - marmaduke 8y ago
    This is a solid point. I used Vim for years but kept a whole repo of configuration; setup from scratch took a long time. Eventually I found myself not adding key bindings because $random_server wasn’t gonna have those.
wodenokoto 8y ago
I have yet to "invest" in a terminal editor, so but I feel like it is impossible to choose. They all have a steep learning curve and it seems like you need to climb pretty far up that curve before you can even judge if it is worth it to begin with.
- jgtrosh 8y ago
  It is worth it, though not necessarily for improving the things you care about now.
jacknews 8y ago
Exactly, I really like the ideas, it seems to be 'vim, done rationally', but the vim muscle memory is just too ingrained, and I have quite a few custom keys bound for things like kicking off a test run, adding 'focus' flags to a current test etc, and then multi windows/panes, and plugins like nerd-tree, git tools like fugitive, gitgutter, etc, etc Playing with it for a while did prompt me to look into and adopt vim visual mode, which I've never really used (was it even present if vi on ttys?). It's a step closer to the more rational (to me) 'selection, action' ordering.
xashor 8y ago
Most key strokes in vim have roughly the same meaning in kakoune. My switch to kak two years ago was quite easy, maybe a week or two until I felt as comfortable – even though I used vim for nearly a decade. So I really recommend to at least try it, if you want to.

I really like Kakoune and its ideas. But I've invested too much into vim to switch at this point :(

by icholy 8y ago

I really like Kakoune and its ideas. But I've invested too much into vim to switch at this point :(

This is exactly my position too. I really like the concept of kakoune, but vim is everywhere. I can install keybinds for it in any editor on the planet, there's at least a vi on any system I happen across, things like qutebrowser ships with vim bindings by default, etc. etc.

caymanjim 8y ago
Vim really isn't everywhere, though, in any meaningful sense. I see this claim frequently, but if you're a Vim power user, using it as your primary IDE, the stock configuration is unusable. A fully-customized Vim setup bears very little resemblance to a vanilla/default Vim setup, and the default can't be used for anything more than quick, tiny changes. Also, how often do you use a brand-new clean system without any extra software installed? You might regularly do this if you're a sysadmin/devops person, but in that case, you ought to be using Ansible or something to bootstrap the machine to a robust state, and that would include customizing Vim if you rely on it heavily. The "quick edit to system config files" use case for Vim is also not the same as the "software development environment" use case. You can get by with unconfigured Vim in this scenario, but it doesn't obviate the need for a complete configuration if you plan to do intense editing later. The fallacy that "Vim is everywhere" is perpetuated by people who don't use Vim for software development.
- pasabagi 8y ago
  I don't know. I think the stock vim is pretty good, and loads of power users tend more towards the 'no plugins' than the 'all the plugins' end of the spectrum. I started with a much bigger load of plugins than I use now, and I don't think I'm unusual in that. The stock settings and workflows, once you understand them, are usually better. The only exception is really for frills - like, a plugin that helps with composing regexes, or language-specific IDE stuff, or a pretty documentation browser. Not to mention, it's really very quick to get all your normal plugins set up. I have a git repo that I just clone.
- marmaduke 8y ago
  This is a solid point. I used Vim for years but kept a whole repo of configuration; setup from scratch took a long time. Eventually I found myself not adding key bindings because $random_server wasn’t gonna have those.

wodenokoto 8y ago

I have yet to "invest" in a terminal editor, so but I feel like it is impossible to choose. They all have a steep learning curve and it seems like you need to climb pretty far up that curve before you can even judge if it is worth it to begin with.

jgtrosh 8y ago
It is worth it, though not necessarily for improving the things you care about now.

jacknews 8y ago

Exactly, I really like the ideas, it seems to be 'vim, done rationally', but the vim muscle memory is just too ingrained, and I have quite a few custom keys bound for things like kicking off a test run, adding 'focus' flags to a current test etc, and then multi windows/panes, and plugins like nerd-tree, git tools like fugitive, gitgutter, etc, etc Playing with it for a while did prompt me to look into and adopt vim visual mode, which I've never really used (was it even present if vi on ttys?). It's a step closer to the more rational (to me) 'selection, action' ordering.

xashor 8y ago

Most key strokes in vim have roughly the same meaning in kakoune. My switch to kak two years ago was quite easy, maybe a week or two until I felt as comfortable – even though I used vim for nearly a decade. So I really recommend to at least try it, if you want to.