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>> The Swiss have a small country and can travel anywhere, so could Armenians if the government and people there took the right steps. It would take a generatio

>> The Swiss have a small country and can travel anywhere, so could Armenians if the government and people there took the right steps. It would take a generation or so but there's no reason you couldn't. What a revelation! Ok, people, down with all that we were doing wrong, let's take the right steps, c'mon! It looks like you're not really familiar with the sense of desperation and powerlessness which is the normal state for citizens of many countries. This is tangential to what the parent's been saying, btw.

sgift 8y ago
> It looks like you're not really familiar with the sense of desperation and powerlessness which is the normal state for citizens of many countries. As an individual ("I need to get a visa and it's hard and there's nothing I can do about it") I can understand, but as a society/country? How are you powerless to change the situation?
- oblio 8y ago
  > How are you powerless to change the situation? At best, you're powerless regarding controlling the rate of change (and the changes required could take many, many decades). At worst there's people fighting against that change, preventing it from happening in the first place.
  - sgift 8y ago
    > At worst there's people fighting against that change, preventing it from happening in the first place. Who exactly? People from the country of the passport holder? People from other countries? I try to get to the root issue here. Yes, it will take time. Yes, it can take many, many years and maybe won't be relevant for you anymore (but maybe for your children), but that is not "powerless" - that is "it takes time" and "it is stressful". So, is powerless a shorthand for those things or is there something else?
    - oblio 8y ago
      People from the country of the passport holder. If you're in North Korea and the like, maybe even people from other countries. For you it's easy to say that it's not "powerless", but how many things have you personally sacrificed knowing that the outcome will be a few decades from when you started? And if you did sacrifice a ton, keep in mind and most people aren't like that and you're an outlier. So most people _will_ feel powerless when they try to change something and that thing doesn't budge for decades even.
    - close04 8y ago
      The very simplified answer is that the "destination" country sets the rules and is usually looking for something specific in order to lift restrictions on the "source" country. That something can be political, economical, military, or social. But whatever it is most times it either takes too long to achieve, or is unreasonable. And in the end there's still no guarantee since the decision is with the "destination". Just look at all the agreements the US signed and how a single president chose to simply ignore. There's the other option that you're part of a certain alliance that precludes you from being to nice to people in "the other" alliance. Enemies. You might not realize it but most countries get a privilege like this because they have some negotiating power. They have something to offer. If you have nothing to offer you're SOL. All this means that for all intents and purposes some countries and peoples are powerless as it goes.
- ZoomZoomZoom 8y ago
  > How are you powerless to change the situation? If by "you" you mean a single person: To really affect the society (at the scale you can feel any echo of your deeds at least in a decade or so), you need to be an activist/to be heavily into politics. This is not for everyone. Most restrain even from engaging into discussions with the nearest circle to avoid being waived off as annoying. If by "you" you mean the actual society: Society has the power when it has a realization of a problem and determination to resolve it. If it can't see the problem or doesn't understand the roots of it, it loses its power.
- eagleal 8y ago
  Don't be so quick to jump to solutions where the problem is unbelievably complex. One word? Iran. Another word? Iraq. One other word? Afghanistan. Another one again? Palestine. All those countries listed above, none had problems before foreign interests intervened. And most of this is true for any 3rd World country. While you and I have the opportunity to make a change in our countries the same is not true for any country, you can't work by extrapolation. Especially when all you can do is struggle to survive.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    "All those countries listed above, none had problems before foreign interests intervened. And most of this is true for any 3rd World country." This is not true at all.
    - pjc50 8y ago
      Well, you have to go back a long way to find "before the intervention", ie into the 18th century.
- Aramgutang 8y ago
  I mean, don't you think they're trying to change the situation? And have been for decades? Armenia has great desire to change its standing in the global passport rankings. However, it is under mounting military threat from neighbouring Azerbaijan. This forces Armenia to maintain very close ties to Russia, to have the assurance of their military protection. Being friends with Russia makes it difficult to also be friends with Western countries and improve one's passport rankings. Trying to sign an economic treaty with the EU can easily result in Russia withdrawing stationed troops. Armenia requires protection, because it's a tiny landlocked mountainous country with no notable natural resources, surrounded by unfriendly and/or conflict-torn neighbours, i.e. with no reliable transport corridors. Meanwhile, Azerbaijan has oil and natural gas reserves, which it's used to build a formidable offensive military force and regularly declares its intent to attack. Would you not feel powerless in that situation? I used Armenia as my example, because I'm familiar with the situation there. But I'm pretty sure every other disadvantaged country has its own set of near-insurmountable obstacles. I say "near-insurmountable", because each country/society works hard to constantly chip away at those obstacles, and eventually, sometimes generations later, they succeed. But in the short-term, it's hard not to feel powerless.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
I'm definitely sympathetic to any individual having difficulty trying to travel, but it's not a 'privilege' that I have. It's not some arbitrary thing. So if you want to 'solve the problem' of 'inequivalent passporting' rights ... then you can encourage citizens and groups of citizens to take the measures necessary to obtain them. Aside from 'special cases' (i.e. Palestine, Taiwan) it's a matter of intelligent organization. There is no avoiding reality.
- oblio 8y ago
  It is a privilege... you didn't "achieve" being born to your parents, you just happened to be. You did achieve things during your lifetime, but really big changes usually take decades, even lifetimes. Few people get to see such radical changes happen.

sgift 8y ago

> It looks like you're not really familiar with the sense of desperation and powerlessness which is the normal state for citizens of many countries. As an individual ("I need to get a visa and it's hard and there's nothing I can do about it") I can understand, but as a society/country? How are you powerless to change the situation?

oblio 8y ago
> How are you powerless to change the situation? At best, you're powerless regarding controlling the rate of change (and the changes required could take many, many decades). At worst there's people fighting against that change, preventing it from happening in the first place.
- sgift 8y ago
  > At worst there's people fighting against that change, preventing it from happening in the first place. Who exactly? People from the country of the passport holder? People from other countries? I try to get to the root issue here. Yes, it will take time. Yes, it can take many, many years and maybe won't be relevant for you anymore (but maybe for your children), but that is not "powerless" - that is "it takes time" and "it is stressful". So, is powerless a shorthand for those things or is there something else?
  - oblio 8y ago
    People from the country of the passport holder. If you're in North Korea and the like, maybe even people from other countries. For you it's easy to say that it's not "powerless", but how many things have you personally sacrificed knowing that the outcome will be a few decades from when you started? And if you did sacrifice a ton, keep in mind and most people aren't like that and you're an outlier. So most people _will_ feel powerless when they try to change something and that thing doesn't budge for decades even.
  - close04 8y ago
    The very simplified answer is that the "destination" country sets the rules and is usually looking for something specific in order to lift restrictions on the "source" country. That something can be political, economical, military, or social. But whatever it is most times it either takes too long to achieve, or is unreasonable. And in the end there's still no guarantee since the decision is with the "destination". Just look at all the agreements the US signed and how a single president chose to simply ignore. There's the other option that you're part of a certain alliance that precludes you from being to nice to people in "the other" alliance. Enemies. You might not realize it but most countries get a privilege like this because they have some negotiating power. They have something to offer. If you have nothing to offer you're SOL. All this means that for all intents and purposes some countries and peoples are powerless as it goes.
ZoomZoomZoom 8y ago
> How are you powerless to change the situation? If by "you" you mean a single person: To really affect the society (at the scale you can feel any echo of your deeds at least in a decade or so), you need to be an activist/to be heavily into politics. This is not for everyone. Most restrain even from engaging into discussions with the nearest circle to avoid being waived off as annoying. If by "you" you mean the actual society: Society has the power when it has a realization of a problem and determination to resolve it. If it can't see the problem or doesn't understand the roots of it, it loses its power.
eagleal 8y ago
Don't be so quick to jump to solutions where the problem is unbelievably complex. One word? Iran. Another word? Iraq. One other word? Afghanistan. Another one again? Palestine. All those countries listed above, none had problems before foreign interests intervened. And most of this is true for any 3rd World country. While you and I have the opportunity to make a change in our countries the same is not true for any country, you can't work by extrapolation. Especially when all you can do is struggle to survive.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  "All those countries listed above, none had problems before foreign interests intervened. And most of this is true for any 3rd World country." This is not true at all.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    Well, you have to go back a long way to find "before the intervention", ie into the 18th century.
Aramgutang 8y ago
I mean, don't you think they're trying to change the situation? And have been for decades? Armenia has great desire to change its standing in the global passport rankings. However, it is under mounting military threat from neighbouring Azerbaijan. This forces Armenia to maintain very close ties to Russia, to have the assurance of their military protection. Being friends with Russia makes it difficult to also be friends with Western countries and improve one's passport rankings. Trying to sign an economic treaty with the EU can easily result in Russia withdrawing stationed troops. Armenia requires protection, because it's a tiny landlocked mountainous country with no notable natural resources, surrounded by unfriendly and/or conflict-torn neighbours, i.e. with no reliable transport corridors. Meanwhile, Azerbaijan has oil and natural gas reserves, which it's used to build a formidable offensive military force and regularly declares its intent to attack. Would you not feel powerless in that situation? I used Armenia as my example, because I'm familiar with the situation there. But I'm pretty sure every other disadvantaged country has its own set of near-insurmountable obstacles. I say "near-insurmountable", because each country/society works hard to constantly chip away at those obstacles, and eventually, sometimes generations later, they succeed. But in the short-term, it's hard not to feel powerless.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

I'm definitely sympathetic to any individual having difficulty trying to travel, but it's not a 'privilege' that I have. It's not some arbitrary thing. So if you want to 'solve the problem' of 'inequivalent passporting' rights ... then you can encourage citizens and groups of citizens to take the measures necessary to obtain them. Aside from 'special cases' (i.e. Palestine, Taiwan) it's a matter of intelligent organization. There is no avoiding reality.

oblio 8y ago
It is a privilege... you didn't "achieve" being born to your parents, you just happened to be. You did achieve things during your lifetime, but really big changes usually take decades, even lifetimes. Few people get to see such radical changes happen.