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The same Musk with the same employees I think I agree with everything except that. What I'm saying is we can't have everything that's positive about Telsa, bu

The same Musk with the same employees I think I agree with everything except that. What I'm saying is we can't have everything that's positive about Telsa, but completely discard Musk. What we _should_ hope for is for the current version of Musk to become a better version of Musk - say, one that can build a viable EV company and help bring about a global transition away from combustion-powered transport, but without the vile personal attacks, impulsive stock-price-affecting comments, absurd PR stunts, overworked workforce etc. I'm well aware that the world doesn't currently have clear answers as to how people can make such profound changes to their personality, but I think it is where more discussion and research needs to be in order for the world to find and develop the leaders who can steer us through the big challenges.

skrebbel 8y ago
I think you're right. But I know many people who went through burnouts and came out better - kept everything that made them great but lost a little of the obsessive edge. Musk at 95% intensity would still be a fabulous captain of industry. Maybe he'll actually change for the better because of all this.
- tomhoward 8y ago
  I agree with that: it's been my own experience of enduring severe burnout and coming out the other side in much better shape. That's what underpins my point of view on this: if we were better at supporting talented-but-flawed people through personal transformation instead treating them with hatred and ridicule every time they misstep, we could have more great leaders and more great companies.
  - scns 8y ago
    A crisis is a chance to grow. Loosers like to celebrate failures of people doing better than them.
    - kristianc 8y ago
      > Loosers like to celebrate failures of people doing better than them. This zero-sum mindset that you're a 'loser' to even suggest ways a company might be a great company, without you know, the founder being an asshole is dangerous and actually shuts down constructive criticism.
  - dingaling 8y ago
    However the talented-but-flawed people need to recognise that they are flawed, and be open to change.
    - afarrell 8y ago
      They also need to express that they are flawed and that they recognise that they are flawed, but in a way that doesn't get twitter piling on them for how much of a wimp they are or how nobody cares about their fee-fees.
  - VSerge 8y ago
    First off, I am not certain it is such a bleak personal experience to work for these companies, an engineer friend at Space X HQ is usually pulling around 40-50h work weeks, which seems sustainable if a little intense. Some industries operate under almost continuous crunches, the video games sector is notorious for this, and it might be that this is the case here too, and that my friend is just lucky to be on a team that is spared being overworked. It doesn't matter that people work on something they're passionate about, at a certain point it gets too much for anyone. I also got close to a burnout, and I did learn important lessons about managing my work life balance, working passionately while avoiding toxic stress, etc [wrote too much personal stuff, pasted under]. To get back to the point though, I wonder whether I would be able to remember these lessons and manage my work-life balance correctly, if I thought my work was as world changing as what Tesla and Space X are doing. I am deeply grateful that people like Elon Musk and the many others in these companies are willing to make decisions that might deprive them of time with their loved ones, potentially affect their health too, to bring such a change about. I mean, the overarching goal of Space X to make life multi-planetary might seem like PR fluff to some, but I agree that we will extinguish ourselves if we stay on one planet. I would prefer that governments pool resources and achieve this public good through public means, as I find dangerous that a private company might end up having a monopoly on affordable space access. However, our governments fail on this and can't even agree on curbing climate change effectively, though it is a much more obvious danger, so I can only support Space X in their endeavor, and wholeheartedly wish them success. -- [the personal stuff] I once worked 6 months without a single day off (work weeks of about 90 hours), which to some may appear like a manageable amount of stress, but I was in my early 20s and didn't know how to do this properly. We did make our deadline and things that needed to happen in that time frame did, but after it, lo and behold, the cough I'd had for a month for no apparent reason suddenly stopped. Good that it did too, as my throat was so irritated I was coughing a bit of blood in the end. Sorry for the gory detail there, but just to point out that being overworked does have some very real and physical repercussions, besides also leading to painful life choices. Not realizing my grandfather was in his final days when he was admitted to the hospital with a bad cough, and not getting there in time to say goodbye, is my personal low point in this regard, and something I have regretted ever since. I wish I hadn't needed to make such a terrible error in judgement to learn this lesson, but I did not make this mistake again, and prioritizing family and friends over work, however important whatever task or deadline might seem in the instant, is something I very much kept it mind since. It has made me much happier, and hasn't negatively impacted my work output in any way I can measure.
  - rthomas6 8y ago
    It's bizarre and absurd to me that the public opinion even has a role in supporting corporate leaders, let alone a large one. Why should it influence Tesla and SpaceX whether or not the public supports him, apart from investing and buying the products? What matters is tangible results, not personal opinions of the masses.
    - deegles 8y ago
      I think the public/social media influences him because he lets it happen, so he gets more feedback, and it's become a vicious cycle.
    - pasabagi 8y ago
      I think the thing is, we think of CEO as a managerial position, but a lot of the time, it's actually a marketing position. It's about defining the corporate brand, both to other businesses, to customers, and to investors. That's why you often get CEOs who are pretty flamboyant.
  - jnbiche 8y ago
    > I agree with that: it's been my own experience of enduring severe burnout and coming out the other side in much better shape. Just for an anecdotal counterpoint, I endured severe burnout and ruined my health to the point of almost dying. I'm still struggling to regain my health 3 years later. To be fair, it's not 100% sure that the burnout caused my health issues (multiple pancreatitis attacks and major relapse of a dormant neurological condition), but some doctors said it was likely that stress had contributed. Personally, I'm certain that the two are connected.
    - tomhoward 8y ago
      I’m sorry to hear of your severe predicament. Things were quite grim for me too and I suspect my life might have been at risk had I continued on the destructive path. But I was able to correct and turn things around - though the recovery has taken as long as 10 years (depending on when you start measuring from) and is still in progress. But I know my life is not in danger anymore and I’ve had a long enough period of things steadily getting better that I can be confident of that continuing. I’m quite confident your stress contributed to your health issues; I’ve extensively researched the mind-body link, and that’s been the key to my recovery. You can contact me (email in bio) if you’d like any pointers. Regardless, best wishes in your journey.
fabizeid 8y ago
Why does it have to be the current version of Musk to be a better version of Musk? Why can't we consider that Musk or his type was instrumental to launch Tesla but at this point a different person is better fit to grow it? Maybe skills needed to sustain a company might be different than the skills needed to launch it.
- that_jojo 8y ago
  Completely just to play devil's advocate, here: When has a major innovative company ever done better after ousting a visionary but perhaps somewhat toxic founder? Maybe we could look at Uber, but it's too soon to tell. And The new management there seems earnest, but I'm not sure they're looking so hot from an actual business perspective.
  - billylindeman 8y ago
    General Motors. William durant vs Alfred Sloan. But better is relative.
    - that_jojo 8y ago
      Oh shit, I like this one. Nice work.
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    I think if you want anyone to even try to answer your question you have to list all the companies that qualify as major and innovative. Otherwise someone responds with an example and you just say that it doesn't count.
  - ABCLAW 8y ago
    How many major innovative companies haven't been headed by a visionary but toxic founder in the first place? If we're just looking into this question to understand how important neurosis is in creating greatness, I think we need the more obvious counterfactual first.
  - mikestew 8y ago
mbesto 8y ago
Why does Musk get a hall-pass? > What we _should_ hope for is for the current version of Musk to become a better version of Musk Or alternatively, he gets punished like he should be (e.g. SEC violations), cedes control and the next person who looks up to people like Musk realizes that there are rules to follow and not following them have real world consequences. People forget about the issues that come with the concentration of wealth, which is unfortunately one of the negative externalities of letting Musk get away with what he has done. I too want a world where a company like Tesla succeeds, but I also don't want a world where we mix this acceptance of free markets with acceptance of socialism where it benefits small amounts of individuals much more so than the masses.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

skrebbel 8y ago

I think you're right. But I know many people who went through burnouts and came out better - kept everything that made them great but lost a little of the obsessive edge. Musk at 95% intensity would still be a fabulous captain of industry. Maybe he'll actually change for the better because of all this.

tomhoward 8y ago
I agree with that: it's been my own experience of enduring severe burnout and coming out the other side in much better shape. That's what underpins my point of view on this: if we were better at supporting talented-but-flawed people through personal transformation instead treating them with hatred and ridicule every time they misstep, we could have more great leaders and more great companies.
- scns 8y ago
  A crisis is a chance to grow. Loosers like to celebrate failures of people doing better than them.
  - kristianc 8y ago
    > Loosers like to celebrate failures of people doing better than them. This zero-sum mindset that you're a 'loser' to even suggest ways a company might be a great company, without you know, the founder being an asshole is dangerous and actually shuts down constructive criticism.
- dingaling 8y ago
  However the talented-but-flawed people need to recognise that they are flawed, and be open to change.
  - afarrell 8y ago
    They also need to express that they are flawed and that they recognise that they are flawed, but in a way that doesn't get twitter piling on them for how much of a wimp they are or how nobody cares about their fee-fees.
- VSerge 8y ago
  First off, I am not certain it is such a bleak personal experience to work for these companies, an engineer friend at Space X HQ is usually pulling around 40-50h work weeks, which seems sustainable if a little intense. Some industries operate under almost continuous crunches, the video games sector is notorious for this, and it might be that this is the case here too, and that my friend is just lucky to be on a team that is spared being overworked. It doesn't matter that people work on something they're passionate about, at a certain point it gets too much for anyone. I also got close to a burnout, and I did learn important lessons about managing my work life balance, working passionately while avoiding toxic stress, etc [wrote too much personal stuff, pasted under]. To get back to the point though, I wonder whether I would be able to remember these lessons and manage my work-life balance correctly, if I thought my work was as world changing as what Tesla and Space X are doing. I am deeply grateful that people like Elon Musk and the many others in these companies are willing to make decisions that might deprive them of time with their loved ones, potentially affect their health too, to bring such a change about. I mean, the overarching goal of Space X to make life multi-planetary might seem like PR fluff to some, but I agree that we will extinguish ourselves if we stay on one planet. I would prefer that governments pool resources and achieve this public good through public means, as I find dangerous that a private company might end up having a monopoly on affordable space access. However, our governments fail on this and can't even agree on curbing climate change effectively, though it is a much more obvious danger, so I can only support Space X in their endeavor, and wholeheartedly wish them success. -- [the personal stuff] I once worked 6 months without a single day off (work weeks of about 90 hours), which to some may appear like a manageable amount of stress, but I was in my early 20s and didn't know how to do this properly. We did make our deadline and things that needed to happen in that time frame did, but after it, lo and behold, the cough I'd had for a month for no apparent reason suddenly stopped. Good that it did too, as my throat was so irritated I was coughing a bit of blood in the end. Sorry for the gory detail there, but just to point out that being overworked does have some very real and physical repercussions, besides also leading to painful life choices. Not realizing my grandfather was in his final days when he was admitted to the hospital with a bad cough, and not getting there in time to say goodbye, is my personal low point in this regard, and something I have regretted ever since. I wish I hadn't needed to make such a terrible error in judgement to learn this lesson, but I did not make this mistake again, and prioritizing family and friends over work, however important whatever task or deadline might seem in the instant, is something I very much kept it mind since. It has made me much happier, and hasn't negatively impacted my work output in any way I can measure.
- rthomas6 8y ago
  It's bizarre and absurd to me that the public opinion even has a role in supporting corporate leaders, let alone a large one. Why should it influence Tesla and SpaceX whether or not the public supports him, apart from investing and buying the products? What matters is tangible results, not personal opinions of the masses.
  - deegles 8y ago
    I think the public/social media influences him because he lets it happen, so he gets more feedback, and it's become a vicious cycle.
  - pasabagi 8y ago
    I think the thing is, we think of CEO as a managerial position, but a lot of the time, it's actually a marketing position. It's about defining the corporate brand, both to other businesses, to customers, and to investors. That's why you often get CEOs who are pretty flamboyant.
- jnbiche 8y ago
  > I agree with that: it's been my own experience of enduring severe burnout and coming out the other side in much better shape. Just for an anecdotal counterpoint, I endured severe burnout and ruined my health to the point of almost dying. I'm still struggling to regain my health 3 years later. To be fair, it's not 100% sure that the burnout caused my health issues (multiple pancreatitis attacks and major relapse of a dormant neurological condition), but some doctors said it was likely that stress had contributed. Personally, I'm certain that the two are connected.
  - tomhoward 8y ago
    I’m sorry to hear of your severe predicament. Things were quite grim for me too and I suspect my life might have been at risk had I continued on the destructive path. But I was able to correct and turn things around - though the recovery has taken as long as 10 years (depending on when you start measuring from) and is still in progress. But I know my life is not in danger anymore and I’ve had a long enough period of things steadily getting better that I can be confident of that continuing. I’m quite confident your stress contributed to your health issues; I’ve extensively researched the mind-body link, and that’s been the key to my recovery. You can contact me (email in bio) if you’d like any pointers. Regardless, best wishes in your journey.

fabizeid 8y ago

Why does it have to be the current version of Musk to be a better version of Musk? Why can't we consider that Musk or his type was instrumental to launch Tesla but at this point a different person is better fit to grow it? Maybe skills needed to sustain a company might be different than the skills needed to launch it.

that_jojo 8y ago
Completely just to play devil's advocate, here: When has a major innovative company ever done better after ousting a visionary but perhaps somewhat toxic founder? Maybe we could look at Uber, but it's too soon to tell. And The new management there seems earnest, but I'm not sure they're looking so hot from an actual business perspective.
- billylindeman 8y ago
  General Motors. William durant vs Alfred Sloan. But better is relative.
  - that_jojo 8y ago
    Oh shit, I like this one. Nice work.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  I think if you want anyone to even try to answer your question you have to list all the companies that qualify as major and innovative. Otherwise someone responds with an example and you just say that it doesn't count.
- ABCLAW 8y ago
  How many major innovative companies haven't been headed by a visionary but toxic founder in the first place? If we're just looking into this question to understand how important neurosis is in creating greatness, I think we need the more obvious counterfactual first.
- mikestew 8y ago

mbesto 8y ago

Why does Musk get a hall-pass? > What we _should_ hope for is for the current version of Musk to become a better version of Musk Or alternatively, he gets punished like he should be (e.g. SEC violations), cedes control and the next person who looks up to people like Musk realizes that there are rules to follow and not following them have real world consequences. People forget about the issues that come with the concentration of wealth, which is unfortunately one of the negative externalities of letting Musk get away with what he has done. I too want a world where a company like Tesla succeeds, but I also don't want a world where we mix this acceptance of free markets with acceptance of socialism where it benefits small amounts of individuals much more so than the masses.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]