4 ms·

Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. Most large corporations are like that and so are Western governments. 'Getting in the doo

Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. Most large corporations are like that and so are Western governments. 'Getting in the door' at an entry-level job in government or even in business ... there are rules here, and tech tends to be more 'skills based' as are startups. But after that you'd be surprised how many people have the jobs just because they think they deserve them. Clearly, an illiterate person is not going to be the Director of whatever, but someone who is intelligent, a good communicator and politically suave can go very far. It's probably much worse in Greece, and every Greek person I know has left. The EU may be about as good for Greece as the USA is to West Viginia - sure, you may be protected and have a low-baseline standard of living, but you're going to get kind of wiped out and never recover because nobody will stay, and nobody will invest. In these Federations, the winners are the established economic powers. Smaller that are really, really responsible (i.e. Montana, Dakotas, or Sweden and Switzerland in EU) and hold their own. Otherwise the power slips away. Greece and Portugal are becoming retirement homes the size of nations.

antouank 8y ago
> Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. It's not black and white, for sure. I lived in Greece until my 27, I had the unfortunate idea to even invest and open a business in Greece, and then I left and worked in Germany and UK for the next 6 years as a software engineer. Yes, the difference is immense. Cannot emphasize it enough. I'd never go back if things remain as they are. You're welcome to go live and work in Greece, then tell me if "clientelism" is the same everywhere. > Clearly, an illiterate person is not going to be the Director of whatever, but someone who is intelligent, a good communicator and politically suave can go very far. You're in for a big surprise...
- candiodari 8y ago
  I think you'll find "clientism" is a function of the unemployment rate. When people are desperate for jobs, clientism will rule. In the real immigrant regions of Rotterdam for example, there is near 100% clientism. By which I mean that every dishwasher is there because they're related, married or very close friends (rare) to the owner. Not that it doesn't happen in The Hague in the big banks, it does, especially higher up. But once you get lower than director, there is very little of it left. There is essentially no unemployment among the educated Dutch population, and they would never do the clientism thing ... at least not for an entry level job. Where you really find it is when big companies outsource local functions, like cleaning the office, or buying large amounts of furnishings. When you look at the personal relationships between those businesses, that's where you go "wait a second ... I've seen that name before". With 30% unemployment, of course you try to help your family with a job, especially if that's the only way to survive. And that pushes out everyone else at that level of unemployment, of course. With 4% unemployment. How low is that ? Well, there are ~10% people with an iq < 80, in any population, which is the level where you have to repeat instructions every 2h at least. Not once, not 10x, not 1000x, but every last 2h. Nor are these people capable of correctly carrying out simple written instructions, so you cannot hang them on the wall and expect anything but disaster. (75 is considered handicapped to the point that they cannot be left alone, ever). In the Netherlands, half of such people are employed in private businesses. That's how low the unemployment rate is there at the moment. So no, with that sort of competition for workers, there is very little clientism at the lower levels of companies. But this has very little to do with cultural differences or attitude differences between the Netherlands and Greece. I'm sure they mattered for the first 2 months of the problem, those differences ... perhaps ... but not for very long. Under the same pressures, the Dutch would surely do the same as the Greek.
arijo 8y ago
Portugal's economy has been booming since 2015 - please resist the temptation of bad-mouthing Portugal before you understand more about it's current political, economical and social situation.
- Gys 8y ago
  Watching it from the inside, i think its main source is tourism and foreigners buying real estate. If the latter ends, i think the economy will fall back again. Because nothing fundamental seems to be changing.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Greece goes into default every few decades for the last many hundred years. So if they were to go a few hundred years without problems, then we can talk about improvements there for example. It's similar with Portugal, or anywhere else. That said, they had a much more recent Empire. Nothing substantial changes in 2 years or even 20, apart from a collapse in government, war, invasion ... or a major treaty with the rest of the EU, which I believe will do to them what NAFTA does to Canada: make Portugal permanently less well off than the rest of Europe, but have some kind of 'bottom baseline' standard of living. We can re-open discussion in a decade to see if there is real change. I did take a quick look into it though and it does look positive at least to some [1] [1] https://voxeu.org/article/turnaround-portuguese-economy https://voxeu.org/article/turnaround-portuguese-economy
- csomar 8y ago
  According to the GDP per capita, it just made it to a bit over the 2008 levels. Sure it has been growing since 2015 but only to make it to a level of 10 years ago.
- geezerjay 8y ago
  > Portugal's economy has been booming since 2015 Actually, that is not true at all. Portugal's recession might have ended back in 2014 but since then economic growth has been anemic and below the eurozone average, and this in spite of the recent influx of cash due to the natinal golden visa program and a sudden tourism boom. Unemployment is still extremely high in spite of the national statistics presenting an unbelievable low rate close to structural unemployment levels, while real unemployment estinates point to a level above 20% for the whole active population and accompanied with an over 50% youth unemployment rate. This is obviously reflected on the nation's wages, which have stagnated for the past 8 years at pre-bailout levels. Oh, and about 1% of the population has been emigrating from Portugal on average per year since the economic collapse in 2011. The only way Portugal is booming is if you count implosion as a boom of sorts.
jamiegreen 8y ago
Minor correction - Switzerland is not in the EU
barking 8y ago
Then there's the other PIG, Ireland, fluctuating between boom and bust like a yoyo
csomar 8y ago
> Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. > Most large corporations are like that and so are Western governments. As antouank explained. The difference is simply immense. > Clearly, an illiterate person is not going to be the Director of whatever, but someone who is intelligent, a good communicator and politically suave can go very far. This is where you get wrong. There are illiterate persons (as can't even write correctly or formulate sentences) holding high executives positions. It is really a different world in the west. Yes, patronage is still here. But if you have skills, you still get a "shot". Sometimes two. You are granted no shots on these patronage-third-world-crap-holes.

antouank 8y ago

> Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. It's not black and white, for sure. I lived in Greece until my 27, I had the unfortunate idea to even invest and open a business in Greece, and then I left and worked in Germany and UK for the next 6 years as a software engineer. Yes, the difference is immense. Cannot emphasize it enough. I'd never go back if things remain as they are. You're welcome to go live and work in Greece, then tell me if "clientelism" is the same everywhere. > Clearly, an illiterate person is not going to be the Director of whatever, but someone who is intelligent, a good communicator and politically suave can go very far. You're in for a big surprise...

candiodari 8y ago
I think you'll find "clientism" is a function of the unemployment rate. When people are desperate for jobs, clientism will rule. In the real immigrant regions of Rotterdam for example, there is near 100% clientism. By which I mean that every dishwasher is there because they're related, married or very close friends (rare) to the owner. Not that it doesn't happen in The Hague in the big banks, it does, especially higher up. But once you get lower than director, there is very little of it left. There is essentially no unemployment among the educated Dutch population, and they would never do the clientism thing ... at least not for an entry level job. Where you really find it is when big companies outsource local functions, like cleaning the office, or buying large amounts of furnishings. When you look at the personal relationships between those businesses, that's where you go "wait a second ... I've seen that name before". With 30% unemployment, of course you try to help your family with a job, especially if that's the only way to survive. And that pushes out everyone else at that level of unemployment, of course. With 4% unemployment. How low is that ? Well, there are ~10% people with an iq < 80, in any population, which is the level where you have to repeat instructions every 2h at least. Not once, not 10x, not 1000x, but every last 2h. Nor are these people capable of correctly carrying out simple written instructions, so you cannot hang them on the wall and expect anything but disaster. (75 is considered handicapped to the point that they cannot be left alone, ever). In the Netherlands, half of such people are employed in private businesses. That's how low the unemployment rate is there at the moment. So no, with that sort of competition for workers, there is very little clientism at the lower levels of companies. But this has very little to do with cultural differences or attitude differences between the Netherlands and Greece. I'm sure they mattered for the first 2 months of the problem, those differences ... perhaps ... but not for very long. Under the same pressures, the Dutch would surely do the same as the Greek.

arijo 8y ago

Portugal's economy has been booming since 2015 - please resist the temptation of bad-mouthing Portugal before you understand more about it's current political, economical and social situation.

Gys 8y ago
Watching it from the inside, i think its main source is tourism and foreigners buying real estate. If the latter ends, i think the economy will fall back again. Because nothing fundamental seems to be changing.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
Greece goes into default every few decades for the last many hundred years. So if they were to go a few hundred years without problems, then we can talk about improvements there for example. It's similar with Portugal, or anywhere else. That said, they had a much more recent Empire. Nothing substantial changes in 2 years or even 20, apart from a collapse in government, war, invasion ... or a major treaty with the rest of the EU, which I believe will do to them what NAFTA does to Canada: make Portugal permanently less well off than the rest of Europe, but have some kind of 'bottom baseline' standard of living. We can re-open discussion in a decade to see if there is real change. I did take a quick look into it though and it does look positive at least to some [1] [1] https://voxeu.org/article/turnaround-portuguese-economy https://voxeu.org/article/turnaround-portuguese-economy
csomar 8y ago
According to the GDP per capita, it just made it to a bit over the 2008 levels. Sure it has been growing since 2015 but only to make it to a level of 10 years ago.
geezerjay 8y ago
> Portugal's economy has been booming since 2015 Actually, that is not true at all. Portugal's recession might have ended back in 2014 but since then economic growth has been anemic and below the eurozone average, and this in spite of the recent influx of cash due to the natinal golden visa program and a sudden tourism boom. Unemployment is still extremely high in spite of the national statistics presenting an unbelievable low rate close to structural unemployment levels, while real unemployment estinates point to a level above 20% for the whole active population and accompanied with an over 50% youth unemployment rate. This is obviously reflected on the nation's wages, which have stagnated for the past 8 years at pre-bailout levels. Oh, and about 1% of the population has been emigrating from Portugal on average per year since the economic collapse in 2011. The only way Portugal is booming is if you count implosion as a boom of sorts.

jamiegreen 8y ago

Minor correction - Switzerland is not in the EU

barking 8y ago

Then there's the other PIG, Ireland, fluctuating between boom and bust like a yoyo

csomar 8y ago

> Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. > Most large corporations are like that and so are Western governments. As antouank explained. The difference is simply immense. > Clearly, an illiterate person is not going to be the Director of whatever, but someone who is intelligent, a good communicator and politically suave can go very far. This is where you get wrong. There are illiterate persons (as can't even write correctly or formulate sentences) holding high executives positions. It is really a different world in the west. Yes, patronage is still here. But if you have skills, you still get a "shot". Sometimes two. You are granted no shots on these patronage-third-world-crap-holes.