5 ms·

> She wants to abolish Greek clientelism. Although every politician has promised this since taking office, none has succeeded. For centuries, the Greek administ

> She wants to abolish Greek clientelism. Although every politician has promised this since taking office, none has succeeded. For centuries, the Greek administration was little more than an excuse for legal nepotism. Clientelism was the functional principle of society. Its roots reach into the Ottoman era, when clan leaders represented the Greeks to the Ottoman authorities, and they have continued to this day. Jobs in the administration served as a reward. Relationships were more important than skills for filling official positions. That's Greece in a nutshell right there. Skills were never relevant, and still aren't. It's all about who you know, and what political leverage you have. The results are there for all to see. I left Greece 6 years ago, and unfortunately whenever I visit, nothing seems to change.

guiriduro 8y ago
I'm not sure that's radically different from many other places. In Spain you have the common practice "enchufes" (plugged-in - somebody put in place by connections rather than ability), Italy too. Even supposedly enlightened Anglo-saxon economies have their old boys networks (especially board rooms), and everywhere they exhort the idea that networking is the way to get ahead (over say, education and objective blind interview procedures).
- pfortuny 8y ago
  From my Greek friend's stories, I gather it is order of magnitudes larger there than in my home country (Spain). Yes, the custom exists but where you know that in Spain it happens "frequently", in Greece it seems to happen "always".
- rospaya 8y ago
  > In Spain you have the common practice "enchufes" (plugged-in - somebody put in place by connections rather than ability), Italy too. Uhljeb in Croatian.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. Most large corporations are like that and so are Western governments. 'Getting in the door' at an entry-level job in government or even in business ... there are rules here, and tech tends to be more 'skills based' as are startups. But after that you'd be surprised how many people have the jobs just because they think they deserve them. Clearly, an illiterate person is not going to be the Director of whatever, but someone who is intelligent, a good communicator and politically suave can go very far. It's probably much worse in Greece, and every Greek person I know has left. The EU may be about as good for Greece as the USA is to West Viginia - sure, you may be protected and have a low-baseline standard of living, but you're going to get kind of wiped out and never recover because nobody will stay, and nobody will invest. In these Federations, the winners are the established economic powers. Smaller that are really, really responsible (i.e. Montana, Dakotas, or Sweden and Switzerland in EU) and hold their own. Otherwise the power slips away. Greece and Portugal are becoming retirement homes the size of nations.
- antouank 8y ago
  > Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. It's not black and white, for sure. I lived in Greece until my 27, I had the unfortunate idea to even invest and open a business in Greece, and then I left and worked in Germany and UK for the next 6 years as a software engineer. Yes, the difference is immense. Cannot emphasize it enough. I'd never go back if things remain as they are. You're welcome to go live and work in Greece, then tell me if "clientelism" is the same everywhere. > Clearly, an illiterate person is not going to be the Director of whatever, but someone who is intelligent, a good communicator and politically suave can go very far. You're in for a big surprise...
  - candiodari 8y ago
    I think you'll find "clientism" is a function of the unemployment rate. When people are desperate for jobs, clientism will rule. In the real immigrant regions of Rotterdam for example, there is near 100% clientism. By which I mean that every dishwasher is there because they're related, married or very close friends (rare) to the owner. Not that it doesn't happen in The Hague in the big banks, it does, especially higher up. But once you get lower than director, there is very little of it left. There is essentially no unemployment among the educated Dutch population, and they would never do the clientism thing ... at least not for an entry level job. Where you really find it is when big companies outsource local functions, like cleaning the office, or buying large amounts of furnishings. When you look at the personal relationships between those businesses, that's where you go "wait a second ... I've seen that name before". With 30% unemployment, of course you try to help your family with a job, especially if that's the only way to survive. And that pushes out everyone else at that level of unemployment, of course. With 4% unemployment. How low is that ? Well, there are ~10% people with an iq < 80, in any population, which is the level where you have to repeat instructions every 2h at least. Not once, not 10x, not 1000x, but every last 2h. Nor are these people capable of correctly carrying out simple written instructions, so you cannot hang them on the wall and expect anything but disaster. (75 is considered handicapped to the point that they cannot be left alone, ever). In the Netherlands, half of such people are employed in private businesses. That's how low the unemployment rate is there at the moment. So no, with that sort of competition for workers, there is very little clientism at the lower levels of companies. But this has very little to do with cultural differences or attitude differences between the Netherlands and Greece. I'm sure they mattered for the first 2 months of the problem, those differences ... perhaps ... but not for very long. Under the same pressures, the Dutch would surely do the same as the Greek.
phobosdeimos 8y ago
To be fair thats what makes Greece Greece. We could turn Greece, or in fact entire Southern Europe, into a new Denmark/Netherlands/Germany but do the people want to give up their identity and culture? When the ECB sent people to Athens to oversee the reforms they were not welcomed.
- akvadrako 8y ago
  I agree completely. Greeks should be allowed to choose their own path even if it leads to ruin.
- oblio 8y ago
  Corruption is never culture.
lvoudour 8y ago
That's Greece in a nutshell right there. Skills were never relevant, and still aren't. It's all about who you know, and what political leverage you have. The results are there for all to see. I left Greece 6 years ago, and unfortunately whenever I visit, nothing seems to change. Same as you, I left about 6 years ago, but I think things are gradually changing (albeit slowly). The state's "tit" has dried out and clientelism is not as rampant anymore, businesses that used to rely on state funded projects (and took advantage of connections) are much fewer, run of the mill shops that offer no quality of service are quickly phased-out by competition. There's still lots of tax-evasion, undeclared employment, etc. and lots of dodgy businesses staying afloat (especially in tourism) but I still see a glimpse of change in the horizon. The three big problems I see that make actual change hard are (a) too many young educated people have fled the country (b) the political environment is still fluid and (c) there are still many obstacles that make starting a business there unattractive. If (b) and (c) are solved, (a) will solve itself and people will come back to start again

guiriduro 8y ago

I'm not sure that's radically different from many other places. In Spain you have the common practice "enchufes" (plugged-in - somebody put in place by connections rather than ability), Italy too. Even supposedly enlightened Anglo-saxon economies have their old boys networks (especially board rooms), and everywhere they exhort the idea that networking is the way to get ahead (over say, education and objective blind interview procedures).

pfortuny 8y ago
From my Greek friend's stories, I gather it is order of magnitudes larger there than in my home country (Spain). Yes, the custom exists but where you know that in Spain it happens "frequently", in Greece it seems to happen "always".
rospaya 8y ago
> In Spain you have the common practice "enchufes" (plugged-in - somebody put in place by connections rather than ability), Italy too. Uhljeb in Croatian.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. Most large corporations are like that and so are Western governments. 'Getting in the door' at an entry-level job in government or even in business ... there are rules here, and tech tends to be more 'skills based' as are startups. But after that you'd be surprised how many people have the jobs just because they think they deserve them. Clearly, an illiterate person is not going to be the Director of whatever, but someone who is intelligent, a good communicator and politically suave can go very far. It's probably much worse in Greece, and every Greek person I know has left. The EU may be about as good for Greece as the USA is to West Viginia - sure, you may be protected and have a low-baseline standard of living, but you're going to get kind of wiped out and never recover because nobody will stay, and nobody will invest. In these Federations, the winners are the established economic powers. Smaller that are really, really responsible (i.e. Montana, Dakotas, or Sweden and Switzerland in EU) and hold their own. Otherwise the power slips away. Greece and Portugal are becoming retirement homes the size of nations.

antouank 8y ago
> Most of the world runs on patrongage, or 'clientism' as you call it. It's not black and white, for sure. I lived in Greece until my 27, I had the unfortunate idea to even invest and open a business in Greece, and then I left and worked in Germany and UK for the next 6 years as a software engineer. Yes, the difference is immense. Cannot emphasize it enough. I'd never go back if things remain as they are. You're welcome to go live and work in Greece, then tell me if "clientelism" is the same everywhere. > Clearly, an illiterate person is not going to be the Director of whatever, but someone who is intelligent, a good communicator and politically suave can go very far. You're in for a big surprise...
- candiodari 8y ago
  I think you'll find "clientism" is a function of the unemployment rate. When people are desperate for jobs, clientism will rule. In the real immigrant regions of Rotterdam for example, there is near 100% clientism. By which I mean that every dishwasher is there because they're related, married or very close friends (rare) to the owner. Not that it doesn't happen in The Hague in the big banks, it does, especially higher up. But once you get lower than director, there is very little of it left. There is essentially no unemployment among the educated Dutch population, and they would never do the clientism thing ... at least not for an entry level job. Where you really find it is when big companies outsource local functions, like cleaning the office, or buying large amounts of furnishings. When you look at the personal relationships between those businesses, that's where you go "wait a second ... I've seen that name before". With 30% unemployment, of course you try to help your family with a job, especially if that's the only way to survive. And that pushes out everyone else at that level of unemployment, of course. With 4% unemployment. How low is that ? Well, there are ~10% people with an iq < 80, in any population, which is the level where you have to repeat instructions every 2h at least. Not once, not 10x, not 1000x, but every last 2h. Nor are these people capable of correctly carrying out simple written instructions, so you cannot hang them on the wall and expect anything but disaster. (75 is considered handicapped to the point that they cannot be left alone, ever). In the Netherlands, half of such people are employed in private businesses. That's how low the unemployment rate is there at the moment. So no, with that sort of competition for workers, there is very little clientism at the lower levels of companies. But this has very little to do with cultural differences or attitude differences between the Netherlands and Greece. I'm sure they mattered for the first 2 months of the problem, those differences ... perhaps ... but not for very long. Under the same pressures, the Dutch would surely do the same as the Greek.

phobosdeimos 8y ago

To be fair thats what makes Greece Greece. We could turn Greece, or in fact entire Southern Europe, into a new Denmark/Netherlands/Germany but do the people want to give up their identity and culture? When the ECB sent people to Athens to oversee the reforms they were not welcomed.

akvadrako 8y ago
I agree completely. Greeks should be allowed to choose their own path even if it leads to ruin.
oblio 8y ago
Corruption is never culture.

lvoudour 8y ago

That's Greece in a nutshell right there. Skills were never relevant, and still aren't. It's all about who you know, and what political leverage you have. The results are there for all to see. I left Greece 6 years ago, and unfortunately whenever I visit, nothing seems to change. Same as you, I left about 6 years ago, but I think things are gradually changing (albeit slowly). The state's "tit" has dried out and clientelism is not as rampant anymore, businesses that used to rely on state funded projects (and took advantage of connections) are much fewer, run of the mill shops that offer no quality of service are quickly phased-out by competition. There's still lots of tax-evasion, undeclared employment, etc. and lots of dodgy businesses staying afloat (especially in tourism) but I still see a glimpse of change in the horizon. The three big problems I see that make actual change hard are (a) too many young educated people have fled the country (b) the political environment is still fluid and (c) there are still many obstacles that make starting a business there unattractive. If (b) and (c) are solved, (a) will solve itself and people will come back to start again