5 ms·

What about types? All parse to string? If not, hopefully please add date/datetime support (better as ISO) and decimal. ---- > More languages? How about make

by mamcx 8y ago

What about types? All parse to string? If not, hopefully please add date/datetime support (better as ISO) and decimal. ---- > More languages? How about make the core on Rust and the rest use it? BTW: What your use for the introspection? What editor is that? I like the auto-complete stuff..

fernly 8y ago
This! As the introduction doc coyly says, > so as a user we usually just concern ourselves with editing the values and a friendly developer takes care of specifying the names for us. :) The friendly developer gets the job of conveying -- somehow -- that values for landline: and mobile: have to be valid tel#s (but must they have the country prefix?) while "hire date:" must be in the form yyyy mm dd only... and also gets the friendly job of writing one-off, locally unique validation code for these fields and hacking them into the parser.
- simonrepp 8y ago
  Conveying what types to enter is not an eno-specific problem, as a user without schema or code access you don't know which types a blank YAML/TOML file expects either! Asides the absolutely valid meta solutions (e.g. in-file comments, clear key naming, documentation) there is an additional way this is approached in eno: If you use the type loaders provided by the API (say 'my_var = document.url('website')'), and properly expose errors to the user, the user will get a localized (!) error message in his language, like "'website' must be a valid url (e.g. https://eno-lang.org/)" https://eno-lang.org/)". In the long run we can have community packages for any number of important locally unique types (loaders are just simple functions, so they can be easily authored), so at some point you likely don't have to write any one-off validation code, and neither the error messages or their localizations, you just pull it in as dependencies.
  - mamcx 8y ago
    How about type inference? You can look at rebol/red/tcl for inspiration, that already look like a config format but have a defined way to types: https://randomgeekery.org/2004/12/26/rebol-datatypes/ https://randomgeekery.org/2004/12/26/rebol-datatypes/ http://www.re-bol.com/rebol.html http://www.re-bol.com/rebol.html
    - simonrepp 8y ago
      I appreciate the input :) but the thing is that the typing concept in eno as it is now is essentially what makes eno eno. Every application that uses eno decides for itself what types it supports and requires, and that in turn is how eno manages to be so simple and usable on the language level, even for completely non-technical people who normally feel uncomfortable with the idea of editing their content as raw text files. If I would add types and type inference again, then I would essentially arrive at YAML and TOML again, and I don't want to reinvent them. ;) But if I actually misunderstood you there, please let me know and do clarify!
      - mamcx 8y ago
        I get that, but I wonder how give a base set of types, that avoid small incoherences. JSOn is a good example: https://www.tutorialspoint.com/json/json_data_types.htm https://www.tutorialspoint.com/json/json_data_types.htm Is so spartan that everyone need to encode dates somehow, to make a simple example. I think this are the base types (also, my experience with RDBMs and building a relational lang now, and always having troubles with cvs, json, and others formats in ETL kind-of-task): - String - Floats. Can be split Ints/Floats but stick to just Float is ok. However, make it Float64. - Date(Time). And be ISO. Not ambiguity. - Boolean - Decimal64. This is a pet peeve of mine. A lot of data in the business space is about money, and floats are not ok. What if like in rebool $3.2 is decimal? Then the composites. ie: This is json + dates/decimal. And make a single encoding (utf8?). Is insane that, for example, you save a CVS in excel and open it again and excel get lost, and can't parse it fine. Apart from this, url, email, host, website, phone, cellphone, city, country, state are so common that maybe with a import like "!schema:common-fields" or something.
simonrepp 8y ago
Regarding types check out https://eno-lang.org/javascript/#loaders https://eno-lang.org/javascript/#loaders - basically eno allows arbitrary types on the language level and provides loaders for all primitive types and currently also a small set of non-primitive types through the libraries. The extent of loaders provided out of the box might grow, likely also externalized into companion packages like https://github.com/eno-lang/enojs-exploaders/ https://github.com/eno-lang/enojs-exploaders/, which currently serves as experimentation ground for this. The core might in fact be reimplemented in C or Rust and used across implementations through native bindings, although only a small portion of the actual parsing core can actually be outsourced like that, so it will depend what the actual benchmarks say then, there's also cost associated with passing around the data through bindings, the devil's in the details there unfortunately. :) The editor in the introspection demo is atom, the introspection is based on the excellent automcomplete boilerplate at https://codersblock.com/blog/creating-an-autocomplete-plug-in-for-atom/ https://codersblock.com/blog/creating-an-autocomplete-plug-i... paired with a few lines that utilize https://eno-lang.org/javascript/#Section-lookup https://eno-lang.org/javascript/#Section-lookup to determine the exact context for the autocomplete suggestions. Glad you like, thanks for your interest!

by mamcx 8y ago

fernly 8y ago

This! As the introduction doc coyly says, > so as a user we usually just concern ourselves with editing the values and a friendly developer takes care of specifying the names for us. :) The friendly developer gets the job of conveying -- somehow -- that values for landline: and mobile: have to be valid tel#s (but must they have the country prefix?) while "hire date:" must be in the form yyyy mm dd only... and also gets the friendly job of writing one-off, locally unique validation code for these fields and hacking them into the parser.

simonrepp 8y ago
Conveying what types to enter is not an eno-specific problem, as a user without schema or code access you don't know which types a blank YAML/TOML file expects either! Asides the absolutely valid meta solutions (e.g. in-file comments, clear key naming, documentation) there is an additional way this is approached in eno: If you use the type loaders provided by the API (say 'my_var = document.url('website')'), and properly expose errors to the user, the user will get a localized (!) error message in his language, like "'website' must be a valid url (e.g. https://eno-lang.org/)" https://eno-lang.org/)". In the long run we can have community packages for any number of important locally unique types (loaders are just simple functions, so they can be easily authored), so at some point you likely don't have to write any one-off validation code, and neither the error messages or their localizations, you just pull it in as dependencies.
- mamcx 8y ago
  How about type inference? You can look at rebol/red/tcl for inspiration, that already look like a config format but have a defined way to types: https://randomgeekery.org/2004/12/26/rebol-datatypes/ https://randomgeekery.org/2004/12/26/rebol-datatypes/ http://www.re-bol.com/rebol.html http://www.re-bol.com/rebol.html
  - simonrepp 8y ago
    I appreciate the input :) but the thing is that the typing concept in eno as it is now is essentially what makes eno eno. Every application that uses eno decides for itself what types it supports and requires, and that in turn is how eno manages to be so simple and usable on the language level, even for completely non-technical people who normally feel uncomfortable with the idea of editing their content as raw text files. If I would add types and type inference again, then I would essentially arrive at YAML and TOML again, and I don't want to reinvent them. ;) But if I actually misunderstood you there, please let me know and do clarify!
    - mamcx 8y ago
      I get that, but I wonder how give a base set of types, that avoid small incoherences. JSOn is a good example: https://www.tutorialspoint.com/json/json_data_types.htm https://www.tutorialspoint.com/json/json_data_types.htm Is so spartan that everyone need to encode dates somehow, to make a simple example. I think this are the base types (also, my experience with RDBMs and building a relational lang now, and always having troubles with cvs, json, and others formats in ETL kind-of-task): - String - Floats. Can be split Ints/Floats but stick to just Float is ok. However, make it Float64. - Date(Time). And be ISO. Not ambiguity. - Boolean - Decimal64. This is a pet peeve of mine. A lot of data in the business space is about money, and floats are not ok. What if like in rebool $3.2 is decimal? Then the composites. ie: This is json + dates/decimal. And make a single encoding (utf8?). Is insane that, for example, you save a CVS in excel and open it again and excel get lost, and can't parse it fine. Apart from this, url, email, host, website, phone, cellphone, city, country, state are so common that maybe with a import like "!schema:common-fields" or something.

simonrepp 8y ago

Regarding types check out https://eno-lang.org/javascript/#loaders https://eno-lang.org/javascript/#loaders - basically eno allows arbitrary types on the language level and provides loaders for all primitive types and currently also a small set of non-primitive types through the libraries. The extent of loaders provided out of the box might grow, likely also externalized into companion packages like https://github.com/eno-lang/enojs-exploaders/ https://github.com/eno-lang/enojs-exploaders/, which currently serves as experimentation ground for this. The core might in fact be reimplemented in C or Rust and used across implementations through native bindings, although only a small portion of the actual parsing core can actually be outsourced like that, so it will depend what the actual benchmarks say then, there's also cost associated with passing around the data through bindings, the devil's in the details there unfortunately. :) The editor in the introspection demo is atom, the introspection is based on the excellent automcomplete boilerplate at https://codersblock.com/blog/creating-an-autocomplete-plug-in-for-atom/ https://codersblock.com/blog/creating-an-autocomplete-plug-i... paired with a few lines that utilize https://eno-lang.org/javascript/#Section-lookup https://eno-lang.org/javascript/#Section-lookup to determine the exact context for the autocomplete suggestions. Glad you like, thanks for your interest!