4 ms·

German citizenship can be passed jus sanguinis, which doesn't conflict with US requirements based on jus soli. Thus, a child born in the US to German parents i

German citizenship can be passed jus sanguinis, which doesn't conflict with US requirements based on jus soli. Thus, a child born in the US to German parents is eligible for citizenship in both countries. This bypasses both countries' requirements on exclusive citizenship because you are not applying for citizenship, but rather exercising your claim to existing citizenship. This is a semantically meaningful differentiation from a legal standpoint. Note that exercising this claim yourself will permanently disqualify you from government clearances at all levels. Source: I went through this process. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

bowmessage 8y ago
Could you talk more about this process? I am a dual US/UK citizen and don't remember (might have been to young) such a process.
- gervase 8y ago
  The difficulty level will vary based on how much paperwork you have already (for proving citizenship during your jus sanguinis claim). I had to submit FOIA requests for records going back to the 1950's, as well as retaining a lawyer. The process took three trips to the German embassy, 18 months, and roughly $2000. However, once the initial process was completed for myself, processing it for my children took a single trip, no lawyer, and roughly $100 apiece for application fees.
- niij 8y ago
  See: https://de.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/dual-nationality/ https://de.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/dual-nationali... German citizenship law has changed quite a lot. You are allowed dual nationality if you are born to German parents, whether in or out of Germany. You are granted German citizenship if your parents were non-citizen German residents living in Germany, with the caveat that you must choose only one nationality upon turning 21/23. Up until around the 60's or 70's German citizenship was only passes paternally, but it not can pass through both the father and/or mother. There was no concept of jus soli before 1990. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Birth_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Birth_i...
tonyztan 8y ago
> "Note that exercising this claim yourself will permanently disqualify you from government clearances at all levels." Could you elaborate on that? Would one be able to renounce one citizenship later on?
- throwaway2048 8y ago
  Foreign nationals (citizens) in the USA are bared from basically all security clearances, forever. Its not completely impossible to get one, but excluding exceptional circumstances, its not happening.
  - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
    You can make an effort to end your citizenship in the other country. The USG may or may not accept that as sufficient to get a clearance.
- gervase 8y ago
  If this claim was exercised for you by your parents prior to turning 18, and you have never travelled on your foreign passport, and you are willing to renounce your foreign citizenship, your eligibility will be maintained. Otherwise it's highly unlikely.
  - Cyph0n 8y ago
    I've read a few security clearance appeal documents for dual citizenship from my country. This is what I managed to figure out. Firstly, you need to have no ties (family or economic) with the other country. This addresses the case of the foreign government trying to blackmail you for information. Secondly, you need to be prepared to renounce your citizenship, and at the very least you need to surrender your second passport. They want to be able to track when you enter and exit the US. Finally, you should be able to demonstrate that you have ties to the US. For instance, you should have lived in the US for more than just a few years during your childhood. I decided that it's just not worth the effort to go through this process. Besides, I don't see what the hassle of a clearance provides when compared to a respectable job in the tech industry.
evansd 8y ago
> Note that exercising this claim yourself will permanently disqualify you from government clearances at all levels. Can you elaborate a bit more on this? Is it something specific to German law? A relative of mine who holds both US and UK citizenship worked for the US government and later for the UK government and was granted elevated security clearances in both roles.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- rjsw 8y ago
  Both the US and UK are Five Eyes countries [1], Germany isn't. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes
- gervase 8y ago
  It's possible that they may be able to grant exceptions on a case-by-case basis; this is strictly based on my lawyer's interpretation of the clearance process. In general, the theory is that I could potentially have travelled to Iran, Cuba, North Korea, etc. on my German passport, and the US government would never know. Since I personally sought out these rights, I have also demonstrated "insufficient loyalty to the United States", which is a second strike against me. Finally, I am not willing to renounce either citizenship, which is yet another.
deleted 8y ago
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anarazel 8y ago
> Note that exercising this claim yourself will permanently disqualify you from government clearances at all levels. I don't think this is quite true on the US side anymore. I think the newer guidelines (SEAD 4, guideline C) have relaxed the restrictions around that a bit. It obviously still makes it considerably harder, and will depend heavily what the other country is.

bowmessage 8y ago

Could you talk more about this process? I am a dual US/UK citizen and don't remember (might have been to young) such a process.

gervase 8y ago
The difficulty level will vary based on how much paperwork you have already (for proving citizenship during your jus sanguinis claim). I had to submit FOIA requests for records going back to the 1950's, as well as retaining a lawyer. The process took three trips to the German embassy, 18 months, and roughly $2000. However, once the initial process was completed for myself, processing it for my children took a single trip, no lawyer, and roughly $100 apiece for application fees.
niij 8y ago
See: https://de.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/dual-nationality/ https://de.usembassy.gov/u-s-citizen-services/dual-nationali... German citizenship law has changed quite a lot. You are allowed dual nationality if you are born to German parents, whether in or out of Germany. You are granted German citizenship if your parents were non-citizen German residents living in Germany, with the caveat that you must choose only one nationality upon turning 21/23. Up until around the 60's or 70's German citizenship was only passes paternally, but it not can pass through both the father and/or mother. There was no concept of jus soli before 1990. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Birth_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Birth_i...

tonyztan 8y ago

> "Note that exercising this claim yourself will permanently disqualify you from government clearances at all levels." Could you elaborate on that? Would one be able to renounce one citizenship later on?

throwaway2048 8y ago
Foreign nationals (citizens) in the USA are bared from basically all security clearances, forever. Its not completely impossible to get one, but excluding exceptional circumstances, its not happening.
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  You can make an effort to end your citizenship in the other country. The USG may or may not accept that as sufficient to get a clearance.
gervase 8y ago
If this claim was exercised for you by your parents prior to turning 18, and you have never travelled on your foreign passport, and you are willing to renounce your foreign citizenship, your eligibility will be maintained. Otherwise it's highly unlikely.
- Cyph0n 8y ago
  I've read a few security clearance appeal documents for dual citizenship from my country. This is what I managed to figure out. Firstly, you need to have no ties (family or economic) with the other country. This addresses the case of the foreign government trying to blackmail you for information. Secondly, you need to be prepared to renounce your citizenship, and at the very least you need to surrender your second passport. They want to be able to track when you enter and exit the US. Finally, you should be able to demonstrate that you have ties to the US. For instance, you should have lived in the US for more than just a few years during your childhood. I decided that it's just not worth the effort to go through this process. Besides, I don't see what the hassle of a clearance provides when compared to a respectable job in the tech industry.

evansd 8y ago

> Note that exercising this claim yourself will permanently disqualify you from government clearances at all levels. Can you elaborate a bit more on this? Is it something specific to German law? A relative of mine who holds both US and UK citizenship worked for the US government and later for the UK government and was granted elevated security clearances in both roles.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
rjsw 8y ago
Both the US and UK are Five Eyes countries [1], Germany isn't. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes
gervase 8y ago
It's possible that they may be able to grant exceptions on a case-by-case basis; this is strictly based on my lawyer's interpretation of the clearance process. In general, the theory is that I could potentially have travelled to Iran, Cuba, North Korea, etc. on my German passport, and the US government would never know. Since I personally sought out these rights, I have also demonstrated "insufficient loyalty to the United States", which is a second strike against me. Finally, I am not willing to renounce either citizenship, which is yet another.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

anarazel 8y ago

> Note that exercising this claim yourself will permanently disqualify you from government clearances at all levels. I don't think this is quite true on the US side anymore. I think the newer guidelines (SEAD 4, guideline C) have relaxed the restrictions around that a bit. It obviously still makes it considerably harder, and will depend heavily what the other country is.